12 replies to this topic

[HeroOfFire]

So, this quest was quite long for the expo, that means it's finished right?

Not quite. There is still more I can add. I got a lot done within the time limit, but some ideas had to be cut.

Just this last week, I've been taking feedback and improving what is already in the quest. Once the expo voting ends, I'll be posting a new demo with some improvements. Here is what to expect:

The Item Randomizer has been adjusted. There is now a limit to how many key items can appear in a world, to prevent having most of them appear in the first 3 worlds. This does mean you are more likely to backtrack to the side dungeons once you find the needed items for them in later worlds. This limit is disabled in impossible mode and one other secret mode.

Rebalanced a few weapons. The Wands no longer use magic, and the first Slingshot now does Wooden Sword damage.

Added some more caves to the worlds that had fewer than 20 of them, and some caves are now multilevel.

Changed the layout of the warp zone, to prepare for future expansions.

You can now access a debug room. At first, going into it gets you an item that be used anytime to track your item collection progress. Coming back with the final boss key of the quest lets you see the rest of the debug room.

Shops now stock Pokeballs. You can use them to catch the common monsters in the quest.

Shops also contain a PC that shows all the monsters you've caught and rearrange them.

You can summon the monsters you have caught to launch an attack. I'm working on this feature right now to allow some variety of attacks.

Added a Pokeball Ring that increased the odds of catching a monster.

The item locations when not randomized will also be changed for better balancing.

Added a class system. Your starting weapon determines your class and gives you a passive item.

Warriors start with a Whimsical Ring
Knights start with a Heart Ring
Rangers start with a Quiver
Mages start with a Magic Ring
Bombers start with a Bomb Bag
Trainers start with the Pokeball Ring

Playing with items not randomized instead starts you with a Small Shield, like many quests do.

All this plus some bug fixes here and there, like unexploded bombs damaging bosses.

Now, I want some feedback on some ideas:

Obviously Professor Oak isn't just asking for some information for no good reason. Those are the seeds for the randomizers.

Some names are special and give a different response and have you start with a certain item. If you want to suggest any other names (not your own please), a joke response for that name, and what kind of play style that name goes with, go right ahead. Names are limited to 10 characters.

Oak also asks for your Home. This has no special responses, this is just to allow more values to seed the randomizers. As a result, he technically doesn't have to ask for where you are from, he could ask a different question here. Such as your favorite thing or favorite Pokemon. If you have any ideas of any good questions that could be asked for a 10 character response, let me know. If you think there could be some special responses to certain answers, that can also be considered. Also, if you have an idea of what these special responses could affect in the quest, let me know.

Currently there is one whistle in the quest, and it can spawn almost anywhere. The only places it can't appear is Victory Road and the later items in side dungeons 5 - 7. The whistle is also useful for the warp zone. Should I have the whistle be limited to appear earlier in the quest for the sake of the warp zone, and if so, how later should it be allowed to appear now? I will accept World 3 as the earliest limit, since World 4 is where backtracking to an earlier world to complete the side dungeon is usually first expected.

Regarding the limit of key items per world, the current limit is 4 (the first sword and starting item do not count toward the World 1 total). Does this sound fine or should I raise the limit to 5? A higher limit means more key items may appear early in the quest instead of heart pieces or optional items. Optional items include custom weapons, most of the scrolls and rings, and some upgrades to key items such as the longbow.

I'm sure some of you will suggest an item pickup script. The issue is, this kind of script needs a string for every unique item, and more items will be added later. To keep the strings better organized, an item pickup script is usually one of the last things to be added. I might be able to make a pseudo pickup script that only shows the name of the type of the random item you picked up (for example, Wooden Sword would be shortened to just SWORD, and the White and Magic Swords would also display SWORD). It would not have a descriptive message to go with the name. Still, if this sounds like a good feature for now, I can add it.

And now, the big one. You don't have to answer this until after the next demo is out, but should I submit what I have completed now to the database and have the rest of the planned content as a big 1.1 update, or keep this as a series of demos and betas and only submit when everything is done?

I'll discuss what I have planned for future development later.

[Ryunaker]

Other reactions:  I could imagine Oak reacting to lands from Dragon Warrior with "Not another one!" (or similar).  Similarly, I almost wonder, if it would be possible to have names change Link's sprite...for example, have Link take on the forms of some of the monsters, as well.  Mind you, that is just a thought.  That could even, in a way, fit in with the 'classes'...but that would be more work, still.  (Part of what inspired this line of thought was Dragon Warrior VII's class system.)  I don't know if that would be possible, and would understand if it would be too much work, though.

 

Key items per world seems balanced, though I do find it odd that I seem to get several pairs of items, one level 1 and one level 2 of certain items, in the same map, for example.  (Not complaining, just funny.)

 

Would I say submit what you have now as completed quest, and then more as 1.1?  In my opinion, the answer would be no.  I had no problem with it being demos for your last quest, and it sounds like you still have heavy work planned for this one, not just simple stuff.  I generally see submission as "This is now complete, most beyond this will be bug fixes."  In the past of your quest, you've completed it, then submitted it as complete.  In all honesty, I am wondering what prompted this line of thought.

[HammerGuy]

I think my only largest complaint is that without any external notes, one can completely lose track of important landmark placement (sideareas, shops, warps to next/previous areas) and get lost. Especially bad before having access to the warpzone; "Where was the warp back/forward in this area again?" Considering we're talking approximately 20 or so caves per zone, that is a lot of filtering to go through if you already did as much of that as you possibly can the first time around in that world.

Edited by HammerGuy, 23 February 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[Mani Kanina]

The Item Randomizer has been adjusted. There is now a limit to how many key items can appear in a world, to prevent having most of them appear in the first 3 worlds. This does mean you are more likely to backtrack to the side dungeons once you find the needed items for them in later worlds. This limit is disabled in impossible mode and one other secret mode.

I dislike this. I generally want to be able to complete an entire world, including side area, before moving on to the next one. My experience with the contest entry was hampered by this, since I wasn't able to do that. Instead I had to manually keep track of what I had or hadn't done. Now, my memory isn't the best, but I'd like to think that I'm not the only one who find it absurd just how much you need to keep track of.

It's not as if things are easily marked anyway, I walked into a random cave entrance and it requires X item to get the item inside. Fine if it's just a key, but if it's a key item I'm probably very much unlikely to remember this cave when I get it, and even if I do I sure as hell won't know the location of the cave. (Meaning I'll have to go around and try all the caves AGAIN.) I also don't like the idea of being forced to leave a dungeon unfinished due missing an item that might have spawned one or two worlds later.


Like, if you wanted make a backtracking heavy quests, then you'd have to make sure that the design is actually accompanying it, which is not something I feel like was done here. Especially given the linear worlds approach that this quest uses and the shear amount of things the player needs to memorise.

Currently there is one whistle in the quest, and it can spawn almost anywhere. The only places it can't appear is Victory Road and the later items in side dungeons 5 - 7. The whistle is also useful for the warp zone. Should I have the whistle be limited to appear earlier in the quest for the sake of the warp zone, and if so, how later should it be allowed to appear now? I will accept World 3 as the earliest limit, since World 4 is where backtracking to an earlier world to complete the side dungeon is usually first expected.

The answer is yes, I'd limit it so that it can show up at the latest in world four.

-----
Here are some other thoughts I have after my experience playing this:

* The best cross should provide much longer true sight than it currently does.
I feel the range of the level 2 cross is good for level 1, but I honestly expected to be able to see more.


* The fairy fountains are useless.
They are placed in randomly generated caves, ergo it's impossible to keep track of where they are.


* Custom minimap for the overworld.
Ideal one that fills up with information when you find stuff. But things that really needs to be marked are: Dungeon entrances, World entrances, World Exits, Shops, Fairy fountains. All the caves are non-descriptive so there is just too much crap to memories currently.


* Plain world password.
Providing an in-game password to a 'pre-designed' plain game that isn't randomized is backwards, this option needs to be provide for the player BEFORE they start the game. And it should probably be handled as an yes or no question right at the start of the quest.


* Better overworld design.
I feel that there is a lack of flow on the overworld, there are plenty of overworld items that are just placed on hills in plain sight and don't really have any real sense of requirement to get them..., except the fact that you have to do a tedious amount of backtracking to get them. This happens way too often and I think it's a result of the very maze-like overworld design. Sure, it might be a good callback to dragon quest monsters, but that does not make enjoyable.


* Tracking item progression.
There needs to be an counter on how many items you have collected from every overworld (including caves) and every dungeon. You, as a player, need to know if you have found all of them. I know you said you'll provide this via an item in some mysterious debug room, but this should frankly be a built in feature when you're making such an item collection heavy experience.


* Different song for the sand dungeon (the one where you fill holes with sand).
Seriously, this track drives me nuts with how repetitive it is. :<


* End reference.
I liked the reference made at very end, I might just have to make that now. :^)


--------------------------

Now, those suggestions are based on what I feel the game needs to make it better at what it does. This next thing is a more personal suggestions on how I think you should expand the quest if you plan on expanding it:

Make more worlds and make more dungeons, but keep the current count the same. What I mean by that is that I think it would be cooler that rather than having a 20 worlds quest, it would be much more interesting having an 8~ worlds quest like now but it's random what eight worlds you get. (It would also improve replay value in my book).

Same with items, I know you have a bunch of different swords and what, five different magic wand replacing magic weapons? I think you have made three different type of candles too. What if, instead of adding all of those to this quest, you only get one 'wand' class item in the entire quest, but which one you get is randomized!

A lot of people really like your massive collection feast quests, but personally, I find the appeal of a randomizer comes in the form of replay value, since every time you play it you'll get a different experience. And I think playing to that strength would make for a great game. But if a game is way too long then that takes away from the replay value, especially of a lot feels same-y.

Please think it over and consider it, Outlands Randomizer and Randomizer Alpha exists, do we need another re-thread of that?

[grayswandir]

Make more worlds and make more dungeons, but keep the current count the same. What I mean by that is that I think it would be cooler that rather than having a 20 worlds quest, it would be much more interesting having an 8~ worlds quest like now but it's random what eight worlds you get. (It would also improve replay value in my book).

Same with items, I know you have a bunch of different swords and what, five different magic wand replacing magic weapons? I think you have made three different type of candles too. What if, instead of adding all of those to this quest, you only get one 'wand' class item in the entire quest, but which one you get is randomized!

A lot of people really like your massive collection feast quests, but personally, I find the appeal of a randomizer comes in the form of replay value, since every time you play it you'll get a different experience. And I think playing to that strength would make for a great game. But if a game is way too long then that takes away from the replay value, especially of a lot feels same-y.

I'm seconding all this. Random isn't really as fun if the end game is always the exact same.


As for the caves, I'm presuming since the screen the entrance is on has knowledge of which cave it is, you could add little plaques above the caves that fill out when you enter them, and show if they have an item remaining or not. You could also possibly make some sort of dowsing rod-type item that points towards the nearest screen with an unfound item? Level ups could provide you with different options when you use it - looking for fairies, shops, warps, etc.


Having some passively triggered pokemon would be neat - like the z3 fairy bottle, for instance. Or maybe some are like the whimsical ring and have a chance to activate with a certain item type. You could have attempting to use them instead just tell you what they do.

[Ryunaker]

I almost want to say, include both options.  One for those that enjoy the collectathons, and one that limits it.  That would actually go with this suggestion to limit the worlds; the collectathons will get a romp through all the worlds, while the ones that go with the limited path would go through a limited set, but even that would be randomized.  Admittedly, not everyone likes the huge sized quests, but I do, even if it takes me time to finish them.  I am not sure just how complicated this would be, though.

[HeroOfFire]

Okay, from these suggestions I've made a few new changes.

 

Since the surprise factor of having a cave randomizer has worn off, there is no point in hiding it anymore. Now Oak will ask if you want to enable the Item, Cave, and Shop randomizers. Leaving all 3 disabled is the no randomizer mode, and Oak will skip over the remaining questions. If any randomizer is enabled, Oak will go on to ask for your name like normal, and the hints for secret codes will get randomized no matter which randomizer you enabled.

 

Since this change frees up 3 of the codes, those are now new codes and new secret modes. One disables the key item limit per world, allowing more key items to appear early. Another code makes all the outside world items heart pieces, but randomizes all the other items.

 

The last code is the most interesting. It caps your final heart total at 16, and while you will also end up with all the key items and full magic meter, other items may randomly not appear. Your final inventory will vary in this mode, and the number of items "missing" is random, up to 32 (16 of those are heart pieces, and thus 16 items will not appear minimum). 100% collection is still allowed in this mode, missing item locations will just end up as rupees that count toward the item count. This mode will be better when the quest is longer, as there will be more items that can randomly not appear.

 

The Whistle now appears no later than World 5 or the World 2 Side Dungeon at latest. Some Whistle triggers have been added to World 7 and the World 4 Side Dungeon. In place of the Whistle, a Whisp Ring will appear no later than World 7 or the World 4 Side Dungeon.

 

Added some small shortcuts in Worlds 1 and 6 for easier exploring.

 

Going into a cave that leads to a Fairy Fountain, a Shop, a Warp, or a Side Dungeon makes a logo appear over the cave to mark where it leads. These logos appear by default when caves are not randomized. One small limitation is you need to go in the cave to make the logo appear; exiting a warp cave in a new world will not make the logo appear. There is no good fix for this. On the other hand, these logos even work in the modes that change how caves are randomized.

 

The appearing blocks that require the Amulet now appear in a 5x5 diamond pattern around Link instead of a 3x3 square.

 

Regarding backtracking, it is by design that you are intended to complete side dungeons later than when you find them. There is always an item in each side dungeon you can reach without needing "later" items when you first find them. Right now, these "early items" can be a key item you are looking for at that point in the quest (like the Raft appearing in Plant Passage). If you think this leads to confusion about when to explore these side dungeons, I could change it to having these early item locations only allow later key items that could also appear anywhere else in that side dungeon, and also add a message in Plant Passage informing you of the potential backtracking. Note these early item locations would still remain easy to get to, the only change is you don't need to check them as early for a key item.

 

As for improving backtracking, having the Whistle earlier gives earlier access to the Warp Zone. If you want, I could also had Super Mario Bros. 1 inspired warp zones to some caves. For example, a cave in World 1 could have a deeper level with warps to Worlds 3, 4, and 5, and the other side of these warps are in deeper caves in those worlds as well. You will likely need the boss key of the world you are warping to for a gate on the other side, to avoid skipping a world and then having issues because you missed a key item in the skipped world.

 

I think that covers everything about the current version, now a few things about the full version.

 

The final length will be 11 Worlds and Victory Road. Since there are already 7 Worlds, this sounds like there is only a third of the quest left to go. This is mostly true. However, some Worlds will have an additional side dungeon found in the first side dungeon. These deeper dungeons will be harder and require much later items to access. I don't plan to allow any key items to appear in these, so they are optional dungeons for more items.

 

There will also be a proper bonus dungeon that the entrance to will randomly appear in one of the 10 rupee secrets. There is a good chance this will be limited to Worlds 2 - 11, so not in World 1 or in Victory Road.

 

The ammo mechanic will return from the randomizers. Bomb Bags and Quivers will be changed to regenerate ammo, and arrow, bomb, and wallet expansions will be added to the quest. One new change is you don't start with any arrow or bomb capacity, but collecting the Wooden Arrow will give you 10 capacity and the First Bomb will give you 8 capacity. The first Quiver will no longer be a key item, and the First Bomb will replace the first Bomb Bag as a key item. Should you find an arrow or bomb expansion before having any capacity, then they will instead spawn the Wooden Arrow and First Bomb.

 

Hearts will cap at 30 and Magic will cap at 16. This works out better than expected, since that means 9 heart pieces per world (if you don't randomize items that is). Worlds will gain 5 new locations that are intended for the expansions. Expansions are likely to end up hidden under bushes, grass, or pots, while other items remain visible (although when items are randomized, no telling).

 

And since each world adds more than 20 locations each, there will be more items. Most of these will be optional, and some will be stronger levels of what is already in the quest. Victory Road and the Elite Four will be rebalanced to the new length.

 

The Flippers will be a key item that will appear no later than World 7 or Side Dungeon 4. Side Dungeon 6 will have a small change to require the Flippers to reach the boss. And the Flippers will be the item needed to reach the first "Deeper Dungeon". Expect a few dive secrets as well, but mostly for rupees prior to World 8.

 

The idea of random worlds might be possible, but I will only consider it after everything else is done. And honestly, having the side dungeons be random would be much simpler (pull a Terraria and have each side dungeon be one of two possible variations).

[HammerGuy]

One small limitation is you need to go in the cave to make the logo appear

 

This is reasonable, the player in a randomized world shouldn't know immediately til they physically go into the cave to investigate.

 

As for improving backtracking, having the Whistle earlier gives earlier access to the Warp Zone. If you want, I could also had Super Mario Bros. 1 inspired warp zones to some caves. For example, a cave in World 1 could have a deeper level with warps to Worlds 3, 4, and 5, and the other side of these warps are in deeper caves in those worlds as well. You will likely need the boss key of the world you are warping to for a gate on the other side, to avoid skipping a world and then having issues because you missed a key item in the skipped world.

 

Might be overkill, but handy if the Whistle/Ocarina goes completely AWOL for a good long while, being pushed into a later location. I see this only as an early game thing considering you put World 5/World 2-Side as the cutoff points of how late it could appear... Does the Ocarina do anything different from the Whistle?

[grayswandir]

This is reasonable, the player in a randomized world shouldn't know immediately til they physically go into the cave to investigate.

No, it's not. If you come out of a cave, shouldn't you know what's in it?

Though I'm not certain why you couldn't just make all warp exit caves known from the start.

 

Two more ideas:

 

What if you made the side-areas massive (like, two times to three times as large), and then randomly blocked off different portions of it? Maybe using colored keys or something similar? You'd probably have a core area that's always played, that has the boss door and such, and then randomly have boss keys and items in the other areas.

 

Also, maybe have mini dungeons/caves/things that traverse between worlds? Like, in world 3 there's a cave that leads to an 8 screen dungeon that comes out into another cave in world 1, or maybe even into world 1's side area. You'd have to open it from the far end, of course. Maybe just block them off with jump-down ledges?

[HammerGuy]

No, it's not. If you come out of a cave, shouldn't you know what's in it?

Though I'm not certain why you couldn't just make all warp exit caves known from the start.

 

I was referring to the part where you have to enter a cave first to have it marked on the overworld.  The warp cave exit part, eh, thats a nitpicky detail at most, I assume they would get marked if you just simply re-entered it, unless I am misinterpreting that.

[HeroOfFire]

Obviously the Warp Zone/Shortcut that matters is between Worlds 1 and 4, since that is the first point you could have the items needed to complete an earlier side dungeon, and also the first point where a key item needed to progress may appear later in said side dungeon. Once you get the Ocarina/Whistle, backtracking is much easier, so later shortcuts would not be needed.

 

But then again, this quest draws inspiration from more games than the title implies. Obviously there are Metroid references, and the quest has a little Metroidvania aspect to it. Although the quest is divided into worlds, I can always pull a Banjo-Tooie and have surprise links between them besides the main warps.

 

Anyway, since the expo thread seems to have been forgotten about, I'll assume voting is over and upload the first beta, which has the same length as the expo submission but with more features and a few fixes as listed here.

 

Just a few things not mentioned before. The first cave has a warp to the debug room, and you can go in it right away for the checklist item to track item collection. The first cave is also the fairy of World 1, so it will be marked.

 

If you enter a secret code that affects a randomizer you disabled, Oak will call you out on it. Speaking of secret codes and modes, I'll explain a few here.

 

One mode causes Oak to skip over the rest of his questions. This mode doesn't use seeds for the randomizers, so you may get some unique results, but no seed means no way to reproduce it.

 

The "Crossing" mode seems strange at first. In this mode, your Name is the seed for the item and shop randomizers, while your Home is the seed for the cave randomizer. The intent is using this mode to reproduce the same cave layout with different item locations. As long as you keep entering the same Home, the caves will always end up the same way regardless of what Name you enter. This could be useful for a race where everyone has the same randomized caves but want different item locations.

 

These two modes are also the only modes that work no matter what randomizers you enable or disable.

 

Now that this beta is out, I can get to work on 4 more worlds and 10 more side dungeons, plus all the items and scripts that come with that. I'll keep watching for feedback, and may add some things like the SMB1 Warp Zone idea if it has enough interest.

 

And don't forget. If you have any suggestions for a better question from Oak than where your Home is or any other Names that could have some good jokes let me know.

[Mani Kanina]

This all sounds good, since I beat it though, I think I'll refrain from trying again until the new worlds are in. A few things though:
 

Just a few things not mentioned before. The first cave has a warp to the debug room, and you can go in it right away for the checklist item to track item collection. The first cave is also the fairy of World 1, so it will be marked.

Is there any reason why this is an item and not just a feature that is always there?
 

 

The "Crossing" mode seems strange at first. In this mode, your Name is the seed for the item and shop randomizers, while your Home is the seed for the cave randomizer. The intent is using this mode to reproduce the same cave layout with different item locations. As long as you keep entering the same Home, the caves will always end up the same way regardless of what Name you enter. This could be useful for a race where everyone has the same randomized caves but want different item locations.

This is a great idea, I like it. It let's you replay the game having the caves where you remember them, while still spicing up the progress.



Also, if you don't put in item boxes/strings for when you pick up items, please include like, a reference room or something? I had a really hard time figuring out which rings did what. (I was not even aware the half magic thing was the cross, I just though it was only a half magic item.)

Edited by Lunaria, 27 February 2016 - 03:03 PM.

[Ryunaker]

Slight bug:  I saved and exited outside of one cave, and came back in to find myself outside another that I had not even been to yet.  This is in the new beta, in World 1.