21 replies to this topic

[Shane]

Zelda 1 designed bombable walls to be a secret, yes. However, weren't we talking about A Link to the Past's bombable walls, which are intended to be mainly obstacles? I can see how this could feel like Simon Says, but I haven't felt that, since every game tends to be like that one way or another so I shrug it off. Simon says find 9 dungeons and rescue the princess. Simon says finish the game. Simon says plug in your NES and turn the system on.

 

I don't see how any of this is bad, either way. I personally think the franchise has improved in several areas since Zelda 1. But that's just me I suppose. 

[Maleboocado]

You said that ALttP made smart choices and created new good conventions for the franchise, which I honestly disagree and said two examples of wrong choices the game did.

And of course the franchise has improved in key areas over the course of the years. The franchise improved in its stories from LA onwards, and then TP and TMC came and ruined it (hi shoehorned Ganon). It also had good art style and visuals in several games (again, TP and SS are NOT one of those games). And some scenes and moments still touchs me after so many years (WW's sea, Sheik's cutscenes, Anju and Kafei meeting before the moon fall...) But at the cost of ruining the basic gameplay core, the bare bones. Not even the best story ever made will fix a game that is broken at a fundamental, low level point.

Edited by Maleboocado, 09 July 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[Shane]

Well sure. I personally don't see what you see in Zelda 1. I get the philosophy that secrets can make a world feel much larger than it actually is, which Zelda games have done one way or another for me, and I hope Zelda U takes full advantage of secrets. But I'm also okay with obstacles to since I see fun in those too. Personally I like the feeling when I see a bombable wall but I need to get a bomb bag first. I think the gameplay and level design for the most part is absolutely fine. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Koh]

Maleboo, you are like, on the complete polar opposite side of Zelda 1 than me.  

 

The main reason I liked Zelda 1 as much as I did was the freedom it gave the player.  The "secrets" you're going on about amount to nothing more than time wasters.  Don't know which wall or cliff segment to bomb?  I guess you'll just have to place bombs at every wall, go back to the store to buy more, and continue doing that until you've exhausted every possibility.  Don't know which shrub to burn?  Well, until you get the Red Candle, you'll just have to leave the screen and come back a billion times until you find it.  There's nothing gained by not having some sort of distinction.  It doesn't need to be a mondo crack in the wall, but a subtle difference on the tile that you'd notice if you were paying attention would suffice just fine.

 

Let's not forget the rupee limit.  It may SEEM like it enforces a micromanagement layer, but no, all it really does is have you grind for rupees until you can buy the next thing.

 

The last thing a game should do is waste the player's time over trivial things.  A game should be testing the player's SKILL and ABILITY, not how much time they can waste.

Edited by Koh, 09 July 2015 - 02:58 PM.

[SyrianBallaS]

The dungeon locations in Z3 are not "A secret to everybody". I think it's because they had to take out the briberies in the corrupt world making it more like a requirement for our naive hero.

 

Like giving 10/15 rupees to the castle guard, that is nothing. You'd have to pay me pretty good money to keep it a secret. (I don't take bribes and never will).

 

The gambling in the later titles weren't really gambling since it has a simplistic algorithm (Zelda 1 as well) where the outcome is relatively fixed. At least in Z3 they used randomization with seeds. If you save state and hit the button at about the same time (or exact) there will be a different prizes every time.

 

Think of zelda 1 like Elder Scrolls 1 where you explore the country of Tamriel in it's entirety. I heard Elder Scrolls Online is like that but I'm not sure.

 

There is no Hyrule in Zelda 1, it's just a wasteland called Hyrule, like the Captial Wasteland (Washington D.C.) in Fallout 3. It's hard to tell from the limited graphics.

Edited by SyrianBallaS, 09 July 2015 - 03:17 PM.

[Nicholas Steel]

Imho none of the dungeons in LttP are that interesting, most or all of them are strictly linear affairs. I agree that bombable walls should be unmarked/difficult to notice, their way too obvious in Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, Twilight Princeess etc. There was ONE bombable wall that was not marked in Skyward Sword that you could tell by hitting the wall with your sword, but it was in a suspicious location so it's not too well hidden and it didn't even contain a good reward (I think it contained a bunch of rupees).

 

I'll admit some games like Link's Awakening used the tell tale sign of a bombable wall in a simple puzzle by having the cracks only appear on one side of the wall in some cases, so you needed to memorize the location and bomb it from the other, unmarked side.

 

Also, in ALttP the order you can do dungeons in pretty much becomes a free for all after getting the Magic Hammer because you virtually have every item a dungeon would require for you to complete them by that point in the game. Dungeon 7 is the only Dark World dungeon after getting the hammer, that requires an item outside of that dungeon to progress through it,

 

Edit: Also with LttP, virtually none of the dungeons featured bombing walls or arrow triggers. Dark World Dungeon 1 required a bomb for the Dungeon Item and I think arrows for an eye statue, but I can't recall any other dungeons requiring bombs or arrows for progression (Aside from boss enemies).

Edited by Nicholas Steel, 11 July 2015 - 12:29 PM.

[Nicholas Steel]

Maleboo, you are like, on the complete polar opposite side of Zelda 1 than me.  

 

The main reason I liked Zelda 1 as much as I did was the freedom it gave the player.  The "secrets" you're going on about amount to nothing more than time wasters.  Don't know which wall or cliff segment to bomb?  I guess you'll just have to place bombs at every wall, go back to the store to buy more, and continue doing that until you've exhausted every possibility.  Don't know which shrub to burn?  Well, until you get the Red Candle, you'll just have to leave the screen and come back a billion times until you find it.  There's nothing gained by not having some sort of distinction.  It doesn't need to be a mondo crack in the wall, but a subtle difference on the tile that you'd notice if you were paying attention would suffice just fine.

 

Let's not forget the rupee limit.  It may SEEM like it enforces a micromanagement layer, but no, all it really does is have you grind for rupees until you can buy the next thing.

DOOM did secrets pretty well. The texture for walls concealing secret areas would be very slightly "off" to the adjacent sections of wall and you had to keep a pretty good eye out for them. Quake 1 also did secrets really well with a greater emphasis on puzzle solving than walls you can interact with to reveal secrets. I feel that secrets in Zelda games should require the player to pay extra attention to the world around them, have them try to do things that seem impossible at first glance etc. instead of having them stick out like a sore thumb.

Edited by Nicholas Steel, 11 July 2015 - 12:23 PM.