1463 replies to this topic

[Evan20000]

Some good discussion ITT recently.
 
Does anyone know what song/BGM plays during level 4?  (The option to save midis isn't available).  Decided I'd give this quest another whirl and that tune's been in my head for a while.

The Gears Go Awry ~ CV:Portrait of Ruin

Honestly though, on topic, I really like how much this quest means to different people for a variety of reasons.

[James24]

NJF - the preference is exactly what I'm trying to point out.  My point about typeA/typeB players is that the type A players prefer easy difficulty and puzzles/path finding over challenging difficulty with no puzzles and exploration.  They might express this through a complaint or simply switch to easy mode and not complain.  And no, I didn't know that "the good, the bad and the ugly" came from a movie.

 

And yes, I agree with you that "hero mode" is the "true" mode of IoR - unless Evan wants to contradict me on this.  The game password giveaway only on hero mode after beating the most brutal and mean boss of all time speaks louder than any words ever will.  Also, on hero mode, if you know what you are doing with respect to the fighting, the game is just so nicely balanced its hard to conceive that it was made by accident.  The other modes were put in because they were cheap to make and catered for players who do not enjoy challenging difficulty - and they certainly acknowledge this in their complaints.

 

Bigboylink - I think Evan disabled midi saving to give players an extra incentive to complete hero mode with the bonus boss.  But yeah that music is one of the best tunes in the game I reckon.

Edited by James24, 01 March 2016 - 10:17 PM.

[Evan20000]

And yes, I agree with you that "hero mode" is the "true" mode of IoR - unless Evan wants to contradict me on this.

The 'true' mode of the quest is whatever the player enjoys most. That said, I'm perfectly okay with incentivizing Hero Mode 100% completion by putting the quest password behind such requirements. It's pretty much the ultimate reward the questmaker can give a player, and I feel the player deserves something special after all the dedication they put into the quest.

[pixcalibur]

Honestly, it all comes down to player preference.  Some people want it simpler, while others prefer a bigger challenge.  Personal preference, would be nice to have all the difficulty options to choose from at the beginning to give free choice, I guess similar to how Tales series games work where at least in some of the games, you can adjust difficulty freely, but bigger rewards for harder difficulties.  Or could have it such that if you choose a difficulty setting, can go easier, but not the other way.

 

As long as there are patterns to enemies and bosses that you can learn, then eventually it gets manageable with some practice.  Assuming enemy attacks and patterns don't change much with difficulty settings, could use a copied save file to go to an easier setting so that you can live longer to learn patterns.  It's when it's all random guesswork that it can be a real pain, as it wouldn't take much bad luck to get you screwed, no matter how good you are

[TheLegend_njf]

And yes, I agree with you that "hero mode" is the "true" mode of IoR

 

I just wanna make a quick note, that this isn't what I said at all. Let me quote myself:

 

 

 

To you, me, Bill Nye the Russian Spy, and many others, the true experience is in Hero.

 

I was referring to specific people here and I did not make claim that Hero is the true experience of Isle of Rebirth. Even though I said "many others", that doesn't mean I was referring to the majority. Just thought I'd point that out. 

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 02 March 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Bill Nye the Russian Spy]

On top of that, I'd like to say that I didn't stick to Hero because it was the "true" experience for me - I stuck to it because I'm a completionist who doesn't like to replay most single-player games (which is the same reason I have a "house rule" against saving after a death in ZC). I always go with the hardest setting because it's there, not because I think it's what anyone intended. (The special reward for Hero Mode in this case was an extra incentive.)

IMO, good games (quests, etc.) with multiple difficulty settings based solely on numbers (damage, drop rates, etc.) are balanced at each setting for a particular experience, rendering the concept of a "true" one meaningless (or, at least, as abstract as Evan defined it for this one). This reasoning falls apart when difficulty settings add more gameplay features (for example, permadeath in Fire Emblem or extra enemy attacks in the Tales series), but it stands in this case.

Still, I do appreciate that IoR doesn't lock you out of the hardest setting on your first playthrough. The Castlevania game I just picked up does, and I still haven't forgiven it.

Edited by Bill Nye the Russian Spy, 02 March 2016 - 11:43 AM.

[James24]

How very diplomatic of you Evan, NJF and Bill - but I think you guys are saying what you're saying simply to preserve your popularity and you won't publicly admit otherwise.  I guess no one does things like me and says exactly what they feel at heart without worry about the consequences.  Players who play "normal", "easy" or "very easy" mode also put a lot of dedication into the quest but do they get the password too?  Nope - and one would have to question very much the reasons for this design decision.

 

Plus, if cheap nerfs suited everyone, then there wouldn't be the "murmurs of discontent" as I pointed out in my earlier posts.  That clearly indicates that a lot of players were very dissatisfied having to play what is at heart a challenge quest that is cheaply nerfed.  And if something is cheaply nerfed - how on earth can it be the "true" mode??  Politics and popluarity at play once again me thinks.

 

Pixcalibur - you should refer to the discussion on Lunaria's Design Corner for how costly it is to create "real" difficulty as opposed to cheap nerfs that satisfy everyone.

[Bill Nye the Russian Spy]

First off, stop trying to speak for other people. I assure you that I give zero shits what anyone else thinks of my play style or gaming philosophy.

Second, a counterpoint: Five Nights at Freddy's. The first one. 4/20 mode wasn't designed to be possible, but Markiplier and a few others did it anyway. That's the sort of thing I'd have tried in that situation, even though it couldn't be the experience intended by the developer - who, again, thought it was impossible. He only added the third star reward after being proven wrong. (We had our own case of this here on PureZC with Dungeon Impossible and Dimentio, IIRC.) Extra rewards and/or difficulty do not necessarily a "true experience" make.

[Aevin]

How very diplomatic of you Evan, NJF and Bill - but I think you guys are saying what you're saying simply to preserve your popularity and you won't publicly admit otherwise.

It's fine to disagree and argue your perspective, but when you start insulting other members personally it becomes a problem. Cut this out.

 

I'd appreciate it if others wouldn't respond to this particular portion. Keep to the subject at hand, (which is presumably quest help for IoR). Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

[TheLegend_njf]

Oh my, how did a quest help thread come to this all of a sudden? This all escalated quickly. 

 

The full moon must be out again. 

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 03 March 2016 - 06:16 AM.

[DarkFlameSheep]

I got a guitar how do I use it? Or can I give it for someone?

Edited by Stray Sheep, 03 March 2016 - 06:21 AM.

[Russ]

I got a guitar how do I use it? Or can I give it for someone?

There's a man in one of the first towns who wanted something to impress his girlfriend. Give him the guitar and he'll give you the next item in the trading sequence.

[bigboylink]

The Gears Go Awry ~ CV:Portrait of Ruin

Honestly though, on topic, I really like how much this quest means to different people for a variety of reasons.

 

Thanks!! Great stuff

 

 

I just started the Blighted Abyss and I see that the quest was recently re-uploaded with a bug fix for that dungeon.  I have a backup save already available just in case I need it, but I'm curious - what was the nature of the bug? 

Edited by bigboylink, 04 March 2016 - 01:28 PM.

[Evan20000]

Thanks!! Great stuff
 
 
I just started the Blighted Abyss and I see that the quest was recently re-uploaded with a bug fix for that dungeon.  I have a backup save already available just in case I need it, but I'm curious - what was the nature of the bug?

Really minor bug. A room had some flags leftover from an older design of that room that never got adjusted to the current design.

[Deedee]

And if something is cheaply nerfed - how on earth can it be the "true" mode??  Politics and popluarity at play once again me thinks.

 

Actually, Normal mode would technically be the "True Mode". Hero Mode bumps up the difficulty using a script, if I'm not mistaken. Therefore, you are not playing on the "True Mode" in your opinion, yet you feel that Hero Mode is the true mode. This proves the point others were trying to make; the "real" true mode is the one you enjoy best. A counter argument to the nerfed thing; if something is cheaply buffed, how on earth can it be the "true mode"? 

I, honestly, find Hero Mode to be the true mode, because I consider myself to be a decently skilled player. However, when I first played this quest, I actually played on very easy mode. I found it to be a very enjoyable experience, and I thought it to be the "True Mode". However, I got more skilled, and now I consider it to be too easy for my tastes. Does that mean I feel it can't be a "True Mode" to others? Heck no, because it was once that to me


On another note, what if there was a mode harder than Hero? An "Impossible Mode", that you learn how to unlock by beating Hero Mode. No heart drops, double damage. I even have a script for it, if you're interested, Evan.