1463 replies to this topic

[Eddy]

So I actually figured out what the issue was. I completely forgot about the other path at the southern shore which led to the 2nd entrance, it actually had nothing to do with the rails. Derp

 

Now back on track to getting through the rest of Level 3.

[James24]

Just finished your IOR on hero mode excluding the bonus dungeon Evan.  On the whole, pretty good quest and certainly very challenging in the later stages.  Early stages not so challenging and it would be easy to think the whole game is easy based on hero mode stage 1 - you'd have to play for a while for it to get difficult.  The most memorable thing - probably the bosses.  Some of the block puzzles like the ice on level 9 were brilliant too.  Just a few gripes with it that really irritated me:

 

1)  On hero mode there should be a "recommended" checklist before battling each boss to ensure that the player is not at an unknown material disadvantage going into a fight - since each fight is very nicely balanced provided the player has optimal equipment.  On two occasions, I don't think I had the required gear to fight the boss and the battled turned out impossible or unintentionally difficult.  First, the moldorm fight with only 20 arrows which is possible but quite hard and second the vengeful spirit fight without the obsidian ring and 2 less than max magic containers which was impossible as far as I know.

 

2)  Don't like the pots in dungeons - a player could grind to refill their hearts/magic at any one of these if they had the time.

 

3)  Running around in circles in a huge dungeon, getting lost and then needing to constantly reference the map.  Level 8 is the best example of this.  Too big and easy to get lost.  Compound this problem with hero mode difficulty and I had to force myself to keep playing despite an overwhelming urge to quit but the remaining levels were worth it.

[Bill Nye the Russian Spy]

1) You're supposed to use bombs on Moldorm Prime, not arrows. As for the rest: every dungeon has one major item/upgrade (as would be expected), and Evan mentions on the quest page (IIRC) that you can always get at least one additional heart container per dungeon if you look hard enough.

2) This is exactly why they're there. Dying is supposed to be an inconvenience (hence F6 not healing you), but having to grind against enemies to heal is fake difficulty, IMO.

3) I had no problems with this whatsoever, personally. If you did, perhaps drawing a map of your own connecting the floors would have helped?

Edited by Bill Nye the Russian Spy, 22 February 2016 - 12:14 PM.

[TheLegend_njf]

1) You're supposed to use bombs on Moldorm Prime, not arrows. 

 

That's considerably misleading considering the Zelda formula usually expects you to use the item you found in the dungeon. (Wait, wasn't bow and arrow before the dungeon? I'm confused... lol)

 

However, Evan's formula expects you to adapt and get use to all your items, and it's something I highly recommend in this quest.

 

Perhaps a simple in-game note should tell players to learn to adapt and use as many of their items as possible so players can think outside the box and not instantly assume the Zelda formula works here. That's just a suggestion. 

2) This is exactly why they're there. Dying is supposed to be an inconvenience (hence F6 not healing you), but having to grind against enemies to heal is fake difficulty, IMO.

 

Pots for healing is just for convenience. But I know some people think convenience is foolish and are really not for any kind of convenience. A friend of mine has criticized this quest for allowing players to change difficulty in game. He said it is too casual and should never be an option in any game, despite the fact that it's convenient. Some people just see convenience as being "too soft on the player".

 

My friend thinks that if the selected difficulty is too difficult, stop being a baby and start over from the beginning.

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 22 February 2016 - 01:48 PM.

[bigboylink]

 

Perhaps a simple in-game note should tell players to learn to adapt and use as many of their items as possible so players can think outside the box and not instantly assume the Zelda formula works here. That's just a suggestion. 

 

 

That note indeed exists - it's in level 1.

 

There's even an NPC who tells the player to use bombs on the Moldorm boss, so that it isn't necessary to tediously exhaust all possible items.

Edited by bigboylink, 22 February 2016 - 09:54 PM.

[James24]

1)  The major upgrade for level 9 I thought was the silver arrows that were given before the level started.  In any case, its not consistent with all other major items from other dungeons because you can proceed without it - up to level 12's boss anyway.  And as for the moldorm, I don't recall any NPC telling the player to use bombs - if its one of those info shops then its very hard to tell what boss they are referring to.  From the way the boss moves around with that strange looking tail, it appears as if arrows are the weakness.  It would just be too hard to use bombs to aim at that tail.   Plus, there are 30 arrows in the room directly preceding the boss which suggest that arrows are to be used.

 

2) Maybe pots shouldn't drop anything on hero mode then?  This would have to be factored into the difficulty.  The players who like normal and below can still grind for them.

 

As for changing the difficulty in game perhaps that should be allowed in the normal and below modes.  At any time you can change it to harder or easier excluding hero mode.  On hero mode, you are locked into hero mode forever from the start and can never change it.  This should add extra spice to the challenge since you know that you are risking a lot of time if it turns out you really aren't the hero

[TheLegend_njf]

1)  The major upgrade for level 9 I thought was the silver arrows that were given before the level started.  In any case, its not consistent with all other major items from other dungeons because you can proceed without it - up to level 12's boss anyway.  And as for the moldorm, I don't recall any NPC telling the player to use bombs - if its one of those info shops then its very hard to tell what boss they are referring to.  From the way the boss moves around with that strange looking tail, it appears as if arrows are the weakness.  It would just be too hard to use bombs to aim at that tail.   Plus, there are 30 arrows in the room directly preceding the boss which suggest that arrows are to be used.
 
2) Maybe pots shouldn't drop anything on hero mode then?  This would have to be factored into the difficulty.  The players who like normal and below can still grind for them.
 
As for changing the difficulty in game perhaps that should be allowed in the normal and below modes.  At any time you can change it to harder or easier excluding hero mode.  On hero mode, you are locked into hero mode forever from the start and can never change it.  This should add extra spice to the challenge since you know that you are risking a lot of time if it turns out you really aren't the hero

My friends complaint about changing difficulties is too minor if you ask me. I was just giving an example of how everybody can almost take anything as casual.

I assume most people taking the Hero Mode challenge already beat Normal and either intend to beat it or give up trying.

If it makes you feel better James. I don't think Blighted Abyss has any pots, but I could be wrong. Lol

[Bill Nye the Russian Spy]

I beat Hero Mode without trying Normal first. :3

The Blighted Abyss does have pots, but only at the entrance (not counting the healing torch at the bottom of the pit). Considering the dungeon's design, they're not nearly as useful as in the main ones.

Edited by Bill Nye the Russian Spy, 23 February 2016 - 05:52 PM.

[Deedee]

Oh man, Blighted Abyss... you're in for a real treat. 

[James24]

Hats off to Evan, Blighted Abyss sure on hero mode is sure a challenge - worthy of comparison with LoH:IE.  Too bad it takes so long to get there.  

 

Managed to get up to the 3 golem room and then got stuck.  I can't see myself beating it with the strategy I'm using to beat the golems right now.  Maybe I should sneak a peek at NJF's let's play of it just to make sure that I have all the equipment that is necessary to beat those things - wouldn't want to be fighting an impossible battle like level 12's boss.

[TheLegend_njf]

Hats off to Evan, Blighted Abyss sure on hero mode is sure a challenge - worthy of comparison with LoH:IE.  Too bad it takes so long to get there.  

 

Managed to get up to the 3 golem room and then got stuck.  I can't see myself beating it with the strategy I'm using to beat the golems right now.  Maybe I should sneak a peek at NJF's let's play of it just to make sure that I have all the equipment that is necessary to beat those things - wouldn't want to be fighting an impossible battle like level 12's boss.

 

I used a cheap but effective strategy.

 

It might be a matter if you even want to try the strategy I used or if you feel it's too cheap to resort to. It is possible to beat these guys without resorting to cheap tactics like I did, like Yloh (Sword_of_Truth in the stream) says he took these guys out one at a time. 

 

 

Scroll to 1:02:42 to see what I did. You'll probably be disappointed.

 

Just a note for future reference. Before you can fight this dungeon's boss, it is highly recommended you do the boss rush mode back up in the cloud world to get an item that's effective for this boss.

 

The boss rush arena also offers another optional exclusive boss only if you have 30 hearts, however, keep in mind he drops an item that makes this dungeon's boss significantly easier and I'd recommend skipping that item if you want to get the full experience of Tartaros that was only exclusive before Evan's update. Most people who have beaten Tartaros did not use the item that ??? gives you. In my run on youtube, I made a duplicate file so I can face Tartaros before defeating ??? so I can beat him without using this OP item. 

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 23 February 2016 - 09:25 PM.

[James24]

Nice video - cheap but effective.  I like it.  Yeah, that staff is what I was missing and I don't think its possible to beat them without it.  But I got it now.  Made my way to Tartaros and I was able kill the bat and destroy its mouth and then I couldn't beat what came next.  But it seems I'm missing another item.

 

Thanks for your advice about the two items that are in the boss rush.  So, if I'm reading it correctly, there is one item that you have to get otherwise the Tartaros fight becomes impossible.  Then there's another item which the boss of the boss rush drops which is optional and makes the battle significantly easier and I shouldn't pick it up if I want the pre-nerf difficulty.  Got it.

[TheLegend_njf]

That staff is this level's dungeon item. You find it by falling down a pit and defeating a bunch of enemies in what appears to be a "trap room" meant to kill you but in actuality leads to the room with this item.

Also, to explain Boss Rush items:

Boss Rush: Earns you essential item after you defeat every boss.

???: An exclusive enemy added to a recent update you can only fight if you have 30 hearts. He drops a ring that wasn't available in earlier versions of the game. He's a fun challenge, but he's not too hard. He's designed to simulate a PvP battle. But his predictable behaviour kinda ruins the PVP concept. Still cool though.

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 24 February 2016 - 08:41 AM.

[Deedee]

Keep in mind, it is possible to beat Tartaros without the item from the Boss Rush. However, it is close to impossible levels you'll be facing without the powerful ranged weapon you get from the Boss Rush.

Also, yeah, beating the 30 heart required boss after the Boss Rush gets you the level 6 magic ring. However, said boss is about equal difficulty to Tartaros, give or take. Some find him harder, some find him easier, and some find him about the same.

Also, do you have the gold tunic? Not sure if you do, but if so, you've probably realized it's been nerfed, along with the red and possibly blue tunic. The gold tunic divides your damage by 4, the same as other quests red tunic. Just a fact I always found interesting about this quest.

[TheLegend_njf]

??? is much easier than Tartaros, mainly because Tartaros has those RNG spawning Death Knights. ??? has a very exploitable AI, while Tartaros is basically ordered chaos.

 

In fact, I found ??? to be much easier than Ultimate Venser in my last playthrough.  

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 24 February 2016 - 06:33 PM.