15 replies to this topic

[lincolnpepper]

puzzles are puzzling puzzlers that are quite puzzling not just to puzzle, but to make aswell.

 

i want some tips for good block puzzles. i know how to make them; just not amazingly well

[lincolnpepper]

im suprised noone has responded to this yet.

[Shane]

I know this will be (somewhat) vague but here's some ideas:

• Add gimmicks to your puzzle. For example, incorporate red and blue blocks into your block puzzle. Or maybe add in the dungeon item somehow.
• Add in some challenge... people tend to add traps and tricks to make the puzzle more complex! Things like traditional traps, timed floor spike traps, fireball statues or perhaps even a timer.
• Don't make a block puzzle too simple... if it's simple, it's only going to feel like a giant waste of time/filler. If you can get the player to think just a little, you nailed the block puzzle IMO.

[idontknow8]

There must be "logic" to your puzzle.  This can be different for each quest but within the same quest, it should be universal throughout the quest.  For example, let's say early on, you have white blocks that are pushable four ways and blue blocks that are pushable only horizontally in one dungeon.  You don't really give the player any hints but that's fine - it doesn't take long through some trial and error for the player to discover this on his/her own.  If you have the same kind of blocks in a later dungeon, they should abide by the same "rules".  (If all of a sudden the player tries to push a white block and it no longer moves four-ways, it breaks this "logic.")

 

In my quest, moveable blocks will have arrows on them that indicate the direction(s) they can move.  While it makes the "rules" quite obvious, it doesn't make the puzzles any less difficult.  In fact, many of them will be fairly difficult.  However, you shouldn't make the puzzles so difficult that they "break" the game.

 

If the player can't solve a push block puzzle or has pushed the blocks in such a way that it makes it impossible to complete the puzzle, then you should have a way for the player to reset the puzzle, either via a "reset" combo or by leaving through an open door & coming right back.  Nothing makes me more frustrated in a quest than when I've screwed up a block puzzle & the quest designer has made the room that it's in closed off with shutters, forcing me to die, respawn elsewhere & have to backtrack.

 

On a similar note, block puzzles should be something that you have to do once per puzzle.  An easy way is to put a locked door in the room & solving the puzzle gives you a key to that door.  Solve once, grab the key & unlock the door.  if you die & respawn, the block puzzle may have reset, but the door remains unlocked so you don't have to do the puzzle again.  If you have a very difficult puzzle (or just pain tedious) puzzle you have to repeat over & over & over, it gets frustrating.  Another solution is to use the "permanent push blocks" script.

 

As for the actual design itself - an easy way is to have a four-way push block be the target block you have to navigate to a goal (a "block trigger" flag) and then vertical only & horizontal only blocks that you have to move out of the way in a certain order.  Further in the game, increase the number of these 4-way blocks & goals for added difficulty.

 

I like what Shane said about adding in other features to the block puzzle.  You can have enemies you have to defeat first.  You can put a block next to your pushable blocks that can only be destroyed/removed by the dungeon item (like a meltable block you have to use the candle fire on first, or a block with cracks in it you have to bomb first, etc.)

Edited by idontknow8, 07 June 2016 - 11:45 PM.

[Alucard648]

I like what Shane said about adding in other features to the block puzzle.  You can have enemies you have to defeat first.  You can put a block next to your pushable blocks that can only be destroyed/removed by the dungeon item (like a meltable block you have to use the candle fire on first, or a block with cracks in it you have to bomb first, etc.)

Another way to do the same thing is a lockblock (or boss lock block if it`s prior to boss) inside the puzzle that renders puzzlw unsolvable until unlocked.

[kurt91]

I'm horrible at block puzzles, so I went with aesthetics instead. I used overturned barrels for the different 2-way blocks, and large cannonballs for the 4-way blocks, so the player would naturally reason that the thing is rolling instead of being slid across the ground and would instantly figure out which objects can move in which direction. As for the puzzle itself, I placed a goal (trigger that needed set) and a starting point (object that goes on said trigger), and just started placing random objects in the space in-between. Every now and then, I play-tested it to make sure that it was still possible to solve. After enough iterations, I just said "screw it" and left it as it was...

 

...Then I realized a few weeks later that I left a huge oversight and that the player could solve the puzzle by pushing one of the obstacles over two spaces from where it started without touching anything else. I went back to making adjustments and play-testing until I got to the "screw it" point again, and had a finished block puzzle.

 

Now, I just try to avoid places where I need block puzzles. They aren't much fun to begin with, and even the official Zelda games didn't get into the full-blown Sokobon levels you see in ZC quests all the time. (Sokobon is the original game that these puzzles came from. Each level was a single block puzzle, and they'd get more complicated) If I need something to take up the player's time, I'll go with exploration instead and just add more maps for the player to wander through. (My game is Metroidvania-based, so exploration is a given.)

 

Speaking of Sokobon, if you were to get somebody to script you a type of switch that you can still push blocks off of after they go on them, you could probably just look online for a Sokobon level generator, input the screen dimensions ZC uses, and just copy the design it makes into your quest. Some of those generators can come up with some really devious and complex puzzles, and because they're generated by starting at the finished solution and working backwards, you're guaranteed to get something that is solvable.

[Alucard648]

Speaking of Sokobon, if you were to get somebody to script you a type of switch that you can still push blocks off of after they go on them, you could probably just look online for a Sokobon level generator, input the screen dimensions ZC uses, and just copy the design it makes into your quest. Some of those generators can come up with some really devious and complex puzzles, and because they're generated by starting at the finished solution and working backwards, you're guaranteed to get something that is solvable.

It`s all too easy to end up with extremely difficult small puzzle in  level 2.

[kurt91]

I used to have one of those generators on my computer. One of the settings you could put in was the number of moves used to mix up the puzzle. I never actually ended up using because it would have needed scripted triggers, which I didn't know how to make.

 

If you have the script, that generator would have been incredibly useful. The only real change you'd need to make is to put together a "room-reset" item, like Farore's Wind, only taking you to the screen entrance you came in from instead of the entrance of the dungeon. Sokoban levels end the moment the puzzle is solved. In ZC, it would still be possible for the player to trap themselves if they solved the puzzle incorrectly. Once that's taken care of, it's simply just building the puzzle to look like part of a dungeon room.

[Mani Kanina]

Good block puzzle? That's an oxymoron if I'd ever seen one.

Block puzzles are certainly a type of puzzle, but it's a very self contained and low level puzzle that on it's own often doesn't add anything to the quest. Not that they are bad, mind, but if you're only throwing in block puzzles for the sake of block puzzles..., then why not consider some actual deep puzzles instead? 'w'

[Avaro]

Speaking of sokoban puzzles, I've used a generator for these in some of my quests before, but I did that very rarely. Most of the time, sokoban puzzles just aren't very fun to solve. I had to simplify them without taking away challenge by removing blocks that didn't add to the difficulty. The most fun sokoban puzzles are the ones that don't require too much pushing and don't have too many blocks.

 

Generally I think a puzzle is more fun to solve if logic is required to find out the solution and if the execution of your idea is not a problem. So what this means is to do what Shane said and add some unique tricks, gimmicks and challenges to your puzzle.

[lincolnpepper]

thank you all for your awesome ideas! block puzzles will (unfortunately, for those of you who dont like them) have a lot of block puzzles, one per area of my game (9 areas.)

[Jamian]

My usual strategy is simply to place blocks and block triggers in a pattern that seems challenging / interesting enough, then I give it a try and see if I can solve it. I then adapt it to make it solvable (if I couldn't solve it), or add extra obstacles, etc. if I solved it and found it too easy. Basically, throw something together, then keep reworking it to improve it. I'm not saying this is the best way, but it definitely works if you don't know where to start.

[Alucard648]

My usual strategy is simply to place blocks and block triggers in a pattern that seems challenging / interesting enough, then I give it a try and see if I can solve it. I then adapt it to make it solvable (if I couldn't solve it), or add extra obstacles, etc. if I solved it and found it too easy. Basically, throw something together, then keep reworking it to improve it. I'm not saying this is the best way, but it definitely works if you don't know where to start.

Link to the Heavens has blocks and fireball shooters. And you need to avoid reflecting fireballs into refFireball triggers that turn block triggers into statues. If one is practicularily cruel, hitting bad trigger warp Link into insta-death room.

[Anthus]

Make it so it only has to be done once.

[Obderhode]

Make it so it only has to be done once.

 

Agreed! If I ever have to solve a block puzzle more than once, I'll probably quit the game. I pretty much hate them, especially when they are super hard. To me they don't add much to the dungeon.