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Forced nonlinearity


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#31 Sheik

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 02:44 PM

I was thinking of redesigning some of my dungeons to allow leeway in their order of completion (so not totally non-linear) when an idea struck me. How would you guys all feel if certain dungeons required you to leave and return to them, e.g.

Dungeon A requires item B to get item A
Dungeon B has item B and requires item A to complete

I don't like it. It feels chopped to me and I don't see what the point is. It also seems needlessly confusing.

What would work very much, from my point of view, would be to have a dungeon that houses "two dungeons". So you complete a first part with item, boss and all and return later with a new item to complete a new part of the dungeon with item, boss and all.

That something is linear doesn't mean it's bad, by the way. Neither is nonlinear aways good.


Edited by Sheik, 05 April 2014 - 02:44 PM.


#32 NoeL

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 10:41 PM

Your original idea... I think it's bad, for reasons stated by others. I do like the idea of interconnected dungeons and whatnot, but if you're going to be playing through a dungeon and come to a block, with no indication that you need a tool from some other unrelated dungeon, it's going to turn lots of players off. They'll assume the item is somewhere in the current dungeon and ragequit when they can't find it. It needs to be clear that the quest doesn't have your standard level progressing, but don't even think about having an exposition dump where a dude in a cave says "You can't complete Level X without Item Y from Level Z." That's just super, super lazy and unengaging.

If, on the other hand, items weren't "dungeon items" in the traditional sense and could be found/bought out in the overworld, when a player comes to a block it would be much clearer that there's likely an item outside somewhere that they missed and make them want to go exploring. Similar to ALBW but not necessarily as blatant.

Talking of non-linearity, I just had a idea of how to make a truly non-linear quest:
You may enter and complete the final dungeon at any point, including the beginning. The presmise for the story is given at the beginning, and is concluded when you finish the final dungeon. Of course, completing it immediately gives you some out-of-context characters or whatever in the finishing cutscene (if there is one), but you meet them from completing other dungeons. The story only makes sense if you complete every dungeon and sidequest.
Also, the other dungeons/towns/sidequests give you items/tips etc. which help you in the final dungeon.
I guess, though, you could have mini story arcs within areas, but it all fits in to the complete story and can be made sense of in the end.
And, you could have an upgraded ending for doing everything at all in the game. Or an upgraded ending for completing the game by defeating the final boss first. Either way, it would be cool.
 
Damn it. Now I have to make a quest like that.

Now this idea... this idea I really like. Well, with the exception of having a nonsensical cutscene - I think that's both irrelevant and indicative of poor design. The story should still be neatly contained even if a person goes straight to the final/only dungeon. The rest of the game could be more like a scavenger hunt, where you learn all the secrets of the dungeon in order to complete it. You might not need to learn them all - some traps you could figure out with luck or trial and error - but if a room requires the seventh stone peacock to be pushed up twice then down twice before bombing the third stone peacock you're not going to figure that out without a clue. There'd be no replay value with such a quest but it'd still be a fun adventure to try and uncover all the mysteries of the dungeon in order to solve it, and a certain amount of satisfaction gained from solving the dungeon without finding all the hints beforehand.
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#33 TheLegend_njf

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 09:58 AM

Noel has a lot of good points.

I'm starting to realize why non-linearity is not overly practiced, there is just so much complexity that it's almost best to avoid non-linearity altogether.

#34 NoeL

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 10:37 PM

I'm starting to realize why non-linearity is not overly practiced, there is just so much complexity that it's almost best to avoid non-linearity altogether.

Not necessarily; it just depends on how your game is designed. There's a common conception that nonlinearity = good and linearity = bad but this isn't true. A screwdriver is good for screwing in a screw but bad for hammering in a nail, and vice versa for hammers. It's about selecting the right tool for the job, or in the case of adventure game design, selecting the right medium for the story (see edit below).

Where I think most people go wrong is that they want to make a Zelda game (which almost always follow a linear narrative) but they want to make it nonlinear because "player choice is awesome you guys!" Player choice is only awesome when that choice is meaningful - it's why I abhor games that give you a "choice" but don't go anywhere until you pick the right one (e.g. Zelda asking Link if he has the Kokiri's Emerald in OoT). But that's a bit of a tangent. I was going to go into more detail about "nonlinearity" being PZC shorthand for "You can do the dungeons in any order" but I don't want to turn this post into an essay.

Back to your original idea though, I think adventure games are best when exploration is rewarded but not enforced. For example, in the Deku tree there's a bombable wall that you can't do anything with until you progress further into the game, behind which is a gold skultula and maybe some rupees or a heart piece or something - things that aren't essential to the game's narrative but reward the player. What you're suggesting is putting the Kokiri's Emerald behind there, forcing the player to return later. Given that the Emerald doesn't actually do anything besides advancing the plot it's not even rewarding to uncover that room, it's just shit you have to do. If I remember correctly, in my ancient quest Hero of Time every dungeon had a HCP in plain sight but many/most (maybe even all?) were inaccessible with your current gear. This wasn't the best idea as there was often no point returning later besides collecting the heart pieces. It was rewarding completionists more than explorers, but at least it was optional.

EDIT: Just realised I went off on a tangent and never talked about when you should use a screwdriver and when you should use a hammer, so here goes:

If we take the original LoZ, the plot allows for a very nonlinear playthrough (get the 8 McGuffins) but the nature of the game doesn't. In Zelda, progression goes hand-in-hand with strength. Every boss leaves behind a heart container, heart containers allow you to get stronger swords, and you gain a larger arsenal as you play - including rings that boost your defense. This is very satisfying for the player as they can clearly see themselves growing and becoming stronger as they complete more of the game (and they even show this on the select screen), but if the dungeons were designed to be done in any order they'd either need a consistent, easy difficulty (which isn't compatible with Link's growth) or the difficulty of all the dungeons would need to grow dynamically with Link's strength (like in The Elder Scrolls). Having numbered dungeons - a suggested order - was a great compromise. It was nonlinearity with a linear guide.

When most people attempt "nonlinearity" in ZQuest they either take the all-dungeons-have-equal-difficulty option (because dynamic difficulty would require scripting and stuff) or make it only half nonlinear, with linear blocks on nonlinearity (see Koh's post). This works better than full nonlinearity because consciously or not the creator understands that the nature of Zelda games, where progression = strength, is fundamentally incompatible with unordered dungeons. In order to ensure the player doesn't get TOO strong for the game they have to limit the choice to within discrete blocks of similar difficulty - either having them consistent (so accounting for Link's growth the first dungeon is slightly harder and the last dungeon is slightly easier) or having a suggested order (where the difficulty/difficulty curve is consistent IF you take the suggested route, but it's not necessary to do so). The main benefit to this segmented approach over LoZ's "linear guide" approach is that it allows the game to have a more structured narrative. It's easier for the designer to know exactly where the player will be at a given point in the game, making it easier to deliver a coherent narrative (e.g. when you first meet Zelda in OoT she/the game assumes you have the Emerald because ordinarily to have to get it in order to meet Zelda, but if you glitch the game and see Zelda without ever hearing anything about the Emerald that part of the narrative suddenly makes no sense). Also, narrative doesn't need to be delivered in cutscenes - that was just an example. Something like opening up the Dark World in LttP is a change in the narrative that wouldn't make sense if Link hadn't gotten the Master Sword and fought Agahnim.

So there you have it. If you're going to make a quest in the vein of Zelda, where game progression is reflected in the strength of the protagonist, you can't just lay down an overworld with half a dozen equally difficult dungeons for the sake of "nonlinearity". That breaks your game - the two things are incompatible. You have to change one thing to fit the other, by either having Link NOT grow stronger (no heart, sword or ring upgrades, no weapons that drastically benefit the player (e.g. hammer)) or nudging/guiding the player along a suggested route (hard enemies to dissuade the player from entering areas they're not ready for, numbering the dungeons, requiring certain items to progress, etc.).

I think it's also fun to reward the player a little bit for going outside the guide, to encourage that exploration. It's not hard to find items that are quite useful in the early game but lose their efficacy in the later game (the boomerang is a good example, despite it still being pretty useful later), so provided it's not game breaking it's good to have these items barely in reach of the player at the time they could really benefit from them. They should never need to get it but should they decide to stray from the path into more dangerous territory there should be something worthwhile for them to find. If all there is to find is, for example, monster bait or something, and there's no point before that place in the guide where it's useful to have that item, it was a waste of time for the player to endure that adversity early on in the game. They got nothing out of it. Oh! A good example of this done right is the power bracelet in LoZ. It's in a fairly difficult region of the overworld but having the ability to quick-travel as early as possible is advantageous - it's worth going a little bit beyond what you're prepared for to acquire. It's also why the white sword and blue ring are guarded by more difficult enemies.

Anyway, enough ranting now. Apologies to everyone that had to sit through that. :P


Edited by NoeL, 06 April 2014 - 11:59 PM.


#35 RetraRoyale

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:11 PM

I'm pretty sure 'non-linearity' is a red-hearing for quest design. You should never do non-linear design for it's own sake.

 

Most games are linear, and only include non-linearity for specific feelings. Like when you want the player to feel like the world has opened up and they are really starting an adventure. (See: early Zelda / Final Fantasy games.) Games that are full non-linear tend to be sandbox-style games.

 

Like Noel said, players want a sense of progression. But they also don't want the progression to be a linear sequence. The game can be linear, but you don't want to feel like "I have to go do A next to continue." You want them to think "I have to do A next, but I can do B and C first, because I saw some clues and I don't want to miss out on them." So players will feel smart and rewarded for investigating open ends, even if they know exactly what they have to do to progress the story.

 

But you need both elements. If you don't tell them what to do to progress, they might get bored, and if you don't let them investigate clues, they will feel like they are on rails. This is, I think, standard practice for adventure games like Zelda. (And honestly, the original Z1 was lacking in the former. You practically needed a guide or a social component to progress. This is fixed in all the later games.)

 

Another style is 'ending-building', where, say, you have one main goal and you have to spend your time preparing for it. You might have a final dungeon accessible from the start. You complete other tasks to level-up, and also to uncover secrets that allow you to get the best outcome. Maybe recruit new characters in order to develop their story and see their ending? So when you beat the game, you are rewarded according to how you've invested your time in extraneous activities, and there is no real main plot. Just many linear sub-plots.


Edited by RetraRoyale, 10 April 2014 - 02:11 PM.


#36 GameLegacy

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 02:16 AM

I'm pretty sure 'non-linearity' is a red-hearing for quest design. You should never do non-linear design for it's own sake.

 

Most games are linear, and only include non-linearity for specific feelings. Like when you want the player to feel like the world has opened up and they are really starting an adventure. (See: early Zelda / Final Fantasy games.) Games that are full non-linear tend to be sandbox-style games.

 

Like Noel said, players want a sense of progression. But they also don't want the progression to be a linear sequence. The game can be linear, but you don't want to feel like "I have to go do A next to continue." You want them to think "I have to do A next, but I can do B and C first, because I saw some clues and I don't want to miss out on them." So players will feel smart and rewarded for investigating open ends, even if they know exactly what they have to do to progress the story.

 

But you need both elements. If you don't tell them what to do to progress, they might get bored, and if you don't let them investigate clues, they will feel like they are on rails. This is, I think, standard practice for adventure games like Zelda. (And honestly, the original Z1 was lacking in the former. You practically needed a guide or a social component to progress. This is fixed in all the later games.)

 

Another style is 'ending-building', where, say, you have one main goal and you have to spend your time preparing for it. You might have a final dungeon accessible from the start. You complete other tasks to level-up, and also to uncover secrets that allow you to get the best outcome. Maybe recruit new characters in order to develop their story and see their ending? So when you beat the game, you are rewarded according to how you've invested your time in extraneous activities, and there is no real main plot. Just many linear sub-plots.

Sooo... Chrono Trigger, right?



#37 MarinaraSauce

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:31 AM

An idea I've had for a while is having an L2 sword trigger in the first room of every dungeon, so that once the player gets the L2 sword, they can access a 'second half' of the dungeon in which they receive the L2 version of the item in the 'first half'.  I mostly just skimmed this thread, so I'm not sure if anyone else has suggested this, but if they have, I guess great minds think alike.




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