35 replies to this topic

[Joe123]

plagiar (overused)

Plagiar does still not mean overused!



http://dictionary.re.../browse/plagiar
Look.
'to copy'
That's not the same as 'overused'.



And having rising water levels it fine.
It's tried and tested, and it works quite well.

[CastChaos]

OK, at least you admit now that this word exists. Also, using something that is overused is just like copying an exclusive (licensed/copyrighted) idea, not? Doesn't really make it any different. Using something overused => bad.

Water level changing goes on my nerves now. It's not hard to invent something new.

[Joe123]

I never said it didn't exist before, I looked it up incase you were right and I looked stupid.

Except you're not.
It doesn't mean that.

'To copy' =/= 'overused'
There is no way you can make those two words have the same meaning.
If you copy things, they can become overused, but it does not mean the same thing

[Bowser Blanchette]

What about references? Does that count in being overused?

[CastChaos]

What do you mean by references? A gimmick that is very similar to another gimmick? In this case, no... if you make at least a small twist in an overused gimmick, it's OK. For example, Lost Isle made a very small twist in the water level change gimmick... it made it three floored. Other acceptable twists: lava level change, poison level change, electrified water level change... Also, overused gimmicks are OK if they are applied to small minilevels or have some other unique gimmick near them. Just imagine a 4 screen big water control cellar where you can higher the water level and so the outside pond dried until you reenter the screen. Almost like in ALttP.

[Schwa]

You know what I'd do? I'd make a water-themed level WITHOUT a water-themed gimmick. So, the dungeon would be flooded and have a lot of water in it, but the gimmick could be something entirely unrelated to the water...

For instance, you could have a bunch of statues of enemies that don't do anything but get in the way, and there's a switch somewhere in the dungeon (like behind the Boss Door for instance) that brings them all to life at the same time. Or, one of my favorite ideas is have a bunch of switches in the dungeon that change ALL the open passages to closed shutters and vice versa. But that one's really hard to pull off.

Or try LA's Level 5 gimmick, and have a boss or miniboss that you have to keep locating in different rooms in a certain order to get the item you need to progress. To get this to work requires some tough ZQ techniques and using up several Level slots, but if you want I can help you with it.

But yeah, the gimmick doesn't have to do with water, even if the dungeon is flooded. ^_^

[Purplemandown]

I wouldn't know. I never played Minish Cap.

[Red Phazon]

Uhg, I'm just going to have to do it. I can't think of anything creative to do without making a ton of graphics and version 2.10. Don't get too worried though. There will be other water puzzles than just lowering and rising water.

[Radien]

Poisoned water is the same, make shallow water and make it a damage combo. But it's also not possible with deep water. However, you can do that there's poisoned deep water which is in fact stairs combo, which takes the player to an identical screen where Link is invisible and is standing on a damage combo and there's an animation showing Link drowning in poisoned water. I did the same a few days ago, just not with water...

Deep poisoned water is totally possible in 2.10.

Here's what you do: have a solid water combo, then combo cycle it to a solid damage combo for a split second. It only needs to be there for one tic in order to do damage. You'll have to use more than two combos to get the timing right, but you can adjust the cycles and the animation speed until it deals damage at the rate you prefer. You could have it only deal damage every few seconds, and call it "icy" water, for instance.

I haven't tested this yet, but it sounds like people haven't even considered trying it so far, so I thought it needed to be pointed out. I do intend to use this method at some point.

[Schwa]

Here's the problem I have with your trick, Raiden: I'm really picky, so if I were using it I'd want it to wait the same amount of time each time Link gets in the water before the damage happens, rather than sometimes going in and getting damaged after 6 seconds and sometimes after 1 second.

The workaround in 2.10, of course, costs you use of the room's Secret trigger (since you want the water to begin cycling only when Link first steps in it), which sucks. Big time.

I know how to do it in 2.5 though... My scripting skills have been getting better, and I find it easy to set up a Global script that slowly decrements Link's HP if his action is either "Swimming" or "Diving". ^_^

[Surreal Canine]

I know that in TheOnlyOne's "To The Top", there's a level that switches between fire and water when you push a block in certain rooms. Half of the "pools" in the level are filled with lava, and when the level switched to water, those pools drain and the other ones fill with water.

In level 6 of MMDWR DC, sometimes you switched between the surface of the water and the bottom of a flooded building. There was also an electrified pool and you had to shut off the power in the level to make the water safe to enter.

And here's my idea: The entire dungeon starts out flooded. If you dive to the floor beneath you, you can swim across any gaps, but all of the doors are closed. If you lower the water level, all of the doors on that floor start working again. Also, the only way to get from floor to floor is by diving up or down, so eventually you'll have to raise the water again.
What do you think of that?

[CastChaos]

And here's my idea: The entire dungeon starts out flooded. If you dive to the floor beneath you, you can swim across any gaps, but all of the doors are closed. If you lower the water level, all of the doors on that floor start working again. Also, the only way to get from floor to floor is by diving up or down, so eventually you'll have to raise the water again. What do you think of that?

Sounds exactly like OoT water temple, just smaller and functional diving added. It's still better than a simple walking dungeon, but it would be nice to have a top floor unaffected by water (or half affected) with an own gimmick or such. Like that MMDWRDC electrified water.

[Colin]

Well, I had a water dungeon theme that is quite complex, but if someone thinks they could use it, go to it!
It takes a bit from Golden Sun, just a disclaimer.

How I'd do it, in full detail, and in 2.5, feel free to take the gimmick, if you don't want all of the details. This is just how I'd, and probably will do it.

In the very center of the dungeon is an enormous fountain fixture. There are 5 or so waterfalls flowing into it. Which has relevance later.

Branching off from the main fountain, there are 4-5 different branches off from the chamber. One branch has no door, and is just a hallway, with dungeon rooms branching from it. 1 of the branches should have a shutter, one requires the dungeon item to pass through, 1 should be regular locked, and 1 boss locked. Note: for deception, you should probably make one of the passages behind a false wall, which leads to another chamber which requires the needed object to open the door. And it probably would be a good idea not to make the part that requires the dungeon item too obvious.

The passage with no lock, should be like, a hallway with a room branching off that requires the dungeon item. The rest of the passages in it should remain unlocked or able to be opened by a switch from another door. The objective in this hallway is to find a trigger that activates something at the fountain.

When the trigger is hit, stepping stones appear at the fountain everywhere, providing access. In the middle of the fountain, is the mini boss, a water elemental in an iron gourd. Once defeated, the water elemental retreats into the gourd, pours out a key from itself, and flies off.

Now, you are able to go into the chamber that requires the key, probably a good idea to have it a long bendy hallway with a river flowing in the middle with difficult-to-access bridges as the only way to cross the river. When you get to the end of this place, you find a switch, which effects the pond again.

Back at the pond, if you travel about a bit, you'll find that one of the waterfalls that you can access via stepping stones are actually now flowing UPWARD. You now can ride the waterfall to a section of the 2nd floor.

Now, you just repeat the process eventually enabling the player to get through all the passages, all with unique properties concerning the rest. Two of them should be the same long corridor with the river in the middle, just different ends of it. One should be like, a water current maze with the raft. And it is easy to get caught in the rapids and have to start over. All of the waterfalls should have to be activated at one time or another, but only allow ONE to be active at the time. The very middle waterfall, being the final one to be active, and at the very top of where it takes you should be a switch that makes ALL of the waterfalls run up at the same time to force the entire pond to lift up into the sky, riding the enormous upward waterfall, you get to the ceiling of the temple, where you'll fight the water elemental for the 3rd time (the second time was another encounter with it somewhere in the temple, probably after the boss door, once it was defeated, it vanished into the water of the temple, leaving the gourd as the dungeon item.). This time, the water elemental has infused with all of the water of the fountain, and is enormous. Forcing you to fight it.

Yeah, so I'm probably gonna do that dungeon someday, but feel free to take the gimmick of a giant fountain with waterfalls that flow into it that change from downward flowing, to upward flowing. If anyone would really LIKE to take the entire idea, feel free for that as well.

Hey, don't worry, I can come up with others as well, I had an idea, where you'd have a temple where there were rivers of water, and rivers of fire, and when a certain switch was hit, they'd reverse each other, thus changing the environment and enemies, and so forth.

[Brandon1]

You know what, I think I know something that would rock in ZC! That thing in Oracle of Ages dungeons 3 and 6, that you step on it and depending on its color it moves you left or right/up or down. That would make some awesome puzzles.

[TheOnlyOne]

Silly Cat 2: Thanks for the mention!

On the topic of gimmicks, I don't always think that the actual gimmick matters, overused or not; rather the extent to which you use the gimmick. If you have a simple water level changing dungeon, do more with it than just "now I can use the raft"/"now I can walk across solid ground" and end up in different places. Elaborate. For example, have blocks when the water is low which act as a bridge when the water is high, have those small cube blocks (what are those things called?) on non-water areas that rise when the water rises because they are 'boyant'. If you can pull it off, activate a secret in a room when the water is low and reap the benefits when you return and the water is high. You can do so much with a simple gimmick, and this is where more of the uniqueness comes in.

Further more, the way the gimmick is handled is very important. It isn't good to blow up a bomb wall, open a key door, etc. and return after activating the gimmick to find it repaired/locked again (unless this was the gimmick, of course). Similarly, if you have picked up the map or compass, it shouldn't suddenly disappear randomly on the sub screen. Another concern (in 2.10 at least) is the save bugs that can occur if you misuse side warps or set Dmap information incorrectly.

Bleh, sorry for the mini rant and the somewhat bad examples. As Silly Cat 2 said I have gimmicks in my quest, and a lot of them at that. In fact, the quest is practically 100% gimmicked, so I want to pretend I know what I'm talking about. Heh. I've had a ton of the problems mentioned above, so when I play a gimmicked dungeon, I'm usually more impressed if the mechanics behind the gimmick are made well rather than by the gimmick itself, but that may just be me.


Anyway, Brandon1, I've got those spinny things in my quest. Video.
And Schwa, I have the LA level 5 gimmick too.