35 replies to this topic

[Xiion]

Between planning it out and making one on the fly, honestly I think it comes down to 2 factors,

1: The complexity of your dungeon
2: Your personal tolerance for insanity

If you've got something simple, planning can just about be thrown out the window. On the other hand, something really complicated might take a bit more forethought to prevent problems later on.

For almost all of my dungeons the planning process went something like this:

1) Determine the essentials; whats the shape of the dungeon, whats the theme, what item/s will be found there, what boss will you fight there,etc.. With the exception of shape, I plotted most of that down prior to making the first dungeon.
2) Shape the dungeon in Zqwest. Go in and plop down all the rooms in the dungeon.
3) Look at an overview of the dungeon and ask myself 'how do I want players to go through the dungeon?' Make a mental path of where you want the player to go, and what rooms they have to go through to get there. This also involves designating 'important' rooms, i.e. boss/triforce rooms, entrance, item rooms, and any other specific rooms I want to make sure I include in the dungeon.
3.5) If my plan gets particularly complicated, I draw up a map of my dungeon, (or better yet, since the dungeons already shaped, take a snapshot in zqwest and print it out.) Having a paper map makes referencing and planning much easier for me. It's also useful later when I need to recall any details I've forgotten; its easier to look on a paper than to hunt through zqwest to find something out.
4) "Path" the dungeon. Go through and plan out and then put in all the doors/stairs/warps in the dungeon. During this time, I also put in all the locked doors, and all the keys.
5) Test the dungeon. Make sure the plan works, before making the dungeon hard to navigate. Walk the dungeon in game and make sure all the doors can be opened, and look for unintended shortcuts, or places where shortcuts might be needed.
6) Go through and build each room of the dungeon, placing terrain/traps/secrets. This is mostly done on the fly, save when I already have an idea for that room.
7) Test the dungeon again, making sure all the secrets work correctly
Place enemies
9) Test again for difficulty, make sure the room is as difficult as intended
10) Polish the dungeon and make another complete run through the dungeon, with a character geared for that dungeons level.
11) Send it to a friend for another set of opinions. A third party player who's not familiar with your dungeon is more likely to find flaws in the design
12) repeat 10 and 11 until the dungeon is satisfactory

I suppose the key is testing the dungeon. Test early, test often. Don't wait until everything's in place to realize "oh no, I need a key, but I can't get to them"'. Personally, I prefer the general planning method as a way to prevent making something unsolvable (isn't that why you're planning it in the first place?) Honestly, I couldn't imagine 'winging' some of the dungeons I made, as it would drive me crazy trying to remember where everything goes, but on the other hand, planning every detail out before hand would be so tedious to me that I would give up on it before anything substantial got planned.

But really, you have to wing it while your planning it the first time, so I guess the only real difference lies with the maker, those with the mind to see how it works on paper vs. someone who can see it as they make it.

Edited by Xiion, 25 February 2008 - 12:00 AM.

[Radien]

1. First I work out an outline of all the dungeons. In my Dance of Remembrance project, this is an ever-evolving list that has changed numerous times. But it's good to start with a plan somewhere. The outline is comprised of names for the dungeons and their respective elements, their general location, dungeon order, the key item for each dungeon, and what is required to gain entrance to the dungeon. (I also keep track of potential dungeon shapes, but the only thing that's really important there is that there's variety between the dungeons.)

2. I draw out a floor plan on paper. I haven't always done this, but it almost always helps me in the long run. Being free from the confines of an editor allows me to get my thoughts out and on record much faster. It also helps me catch a few of the ideas that won't work before I rely too heavily on them.

3. I go into ZQuest and fill one screen with empty combos and copy/paste it to fill out the shape that the dungeon will take up, making sure that they all have the "wrong" palette number (I'll tell why in a moment). Then I start building screens to fill out the shape. The important part is the floor plan; enemies are secondary until all the triggers are working. When a screen is roughly ready for testing, I change its palette number to the "correct" palette for the level so I can see at a glance what is done and what isn't.

4. All of the blank area around the floor map is fair game for layers and dialog/cut scene screens. Both of those are give a "wrong" palette number so I can differentiate them from the other types of screens on the same map.

5. This step is never planned, but always crops up: I almost always end up expanding the map so it can hold all of what I planned to do. This usually consists of adding a basement or another floor, because having more DMaps gives you more freedom to control the use of Boss Keys and other things.

6. Lastly, I test and test until everything works (eep). After the testing is done, and the dungeon is stable, I may work with the enemies to tweak the challenge level (I might also tweak some of the puzzles). I usually leave it open, though, in case I end up wanting to change dungeon order.


I decided not to mention the graphics portion of dungeon design. Hope this helps you, or is interesting, at the very least.



P.S. -

It occurred to me that sequence of events is pretty important, too. So let me tell you how I'm handling that in DoR. Sequence of events can be the most complicated thing in the world if you try to do it the way Ocarina of Time does, given the myriad number of paths one can take toward finishing the game. Here's how I've simplified it:

Every level in the game goes through these steps...

Quest for item that allows entry to dungeon
|
V
Find dungeon that matches entry item
|
V
1st half of dungeon
|
V
Obtain dungeon item
|
V
2nd half of dungeon
|
V
Obtain Boss Key
|
V
Fight boss; one of your current tools on hand will be its weakness (not necessarily the dungeon item)
|
V
Obtain quest item

Pretty similar to most Zelda games, but what you put around it counts for a lot.

[CastChaos]

P.S. -

It occurred to me that sequence of events is pretty important, too. So let me tell you how I'm handling that in DoR. Sequence of events can be the most complicated thing in the world if you try to do it the way Ocarina of Time does, given the myriad number of paths one can take toward finishing the game. Here's how I've simplified it:

Every level in the game goes through these steps...

Quest for item that allows entry to dungeon
|
V
Find dungeon that matches entry item
|
V
1st half of dungeon
|
V
Obtain dungeon item
|
V
2nd half of dungeon
|
V
Obtain Boss Key
|
V
Fight boss; one of your current tools on hand will be its weakness (not necessarily the dungeon item)
|
V
Obtain quest item

Pretty similar to most Zelda games, but what you put around it counts for a lot.

But if you make all dungeons with this order of happenings, chances are that your dungeons will be the same even if you don't realize it. I use non-lineral event chains, but I try to put some into words.

1st dungeon: Access to Floor 1 granted (=> Get compass) => Get keys for next floor and boss room => Access to Floor 2 granted => Get boss key and one key => Get dungeon item and remaining keys (=> Get HCP) => Activate event (=> Get last key if you missed it so far) => Enter boss teleport

2nd dungeon: Access to Floor 2 granted => Get keys, compass and boss key in any order => Unlock shortcuts to Floor 1 => Access to Floor 1 granted => Get part of remaining keys => Unlock lock blocks => Get last part of keys => Unlock doors => Get dungeon item (=> Get HCP) => Activate event => Enter boss teleport

3rd dungeon: Access to Floor 1 granted => Get keys => Defeat miniboss => Activate event => Get the two dungeon items and compass in any order while access to Floor 2 is granted => Access to corridors and ordeal granted (=> Get HCP) => If you complete the ordeal, unlock Terminal 1; if you complete the corridors, access to maze granted => If you complete maze, unlock Terminal 2; if you haven't done so, complete ordeal and unlock Terminal 1 => Access to 2nd miniboss granted => Get boss key => Enter boss teleport

And you can throw in such things like multiple entrances, or that halfway the player needs to exit the dungeon, do things and then reenter to finally complete the dungeon. Also, if my 3rd dungeon wasn't complex enough for you, then you should see my Inverted World Level 3. Also, My IW L4 will be full of "if" parts and branches and optional parts.


EDIT: Now I realized your last sentence. So, you DO put other things in... But still, even this order can be mixed, as I did with the 2nd dungeon.

[Shoelace]

But if you make all dungeons with this order of happenings, chances are that your dungeons will be the same even if you don't realize it. I use non-linear event chains, but I try to put some into words

Well, that will happen if you think in the box. You have to think outside of the box. Lets take Mario for example. You start, you can't get backwards, you have to go to the end and reach the flag. It is what you put in the game, the way that you design it, the way that you make it feel, that makes it seem more than just a linear straight level to a flag.

In Terms of Zelda, I see a lot of people that make the same mistake. People try to make there levels too much like a level they got the idea from. I see it all of the time. People get repetitive because they are thinking in the box. Think out of the box. What sort of thing is unique, grabs your attention, etc.? Zelda mostly has the pattern of what Radien said. But like he said, it is the blue print. What you put on top of it, is what is going to sell.

One thing that is bad when changing the pattern is sometimes you lose the player. The player believe it or not, has some sort of a sense of a pattern. If you change it, players get lost. So if you change something, and if you have multiple entrances, please provide hints for it. Little things like that can make and break your game. And I will tell you for a fact, I have stopped playing ZC quests because of things like that. In my opinion it is laziness. Bad designing on their part. :/

[Aeon]

You have a list of things that you hate to see in dungeons?

[jerome]

I planned mine on POST ITS!!!

I wish I was making this up. The POST ITS were room to room design regarding doors, keys, items, and bosses. The bigger picture, room layout and such, I did with the nifty excel sheet setup someone made to help design quests with (thank you person who I forget to name). Sometimes I'd look at the room and "decorate" it with obstacles of some sort and then decide what enemies. Sometimes I KNEW the enemies I wanted and designed a room to make it remotely/more challenging. And sometimes, I'd just stare at a blank room and curse at it until tiles popped up by themselves. The latter one never really got much accomplished though.

Overall ALL dungeon items I made a list of what I wanted the player to have for each, and then went on designing.