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#16 Anthus

Anthus

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 04:55 PM

I was going to make a new thread, but honestly, it seems to be a bit redundant to do that :P

 

Warning, mega-post incoming. Btw, this was written with the intent of being like a script for a video. There's a lot of extra information in it, and stuff that is common knowledge to most people here. I am saying this, cause I don't want it to sound patronizing. It's written in a way that can hopefully inform someone who has little technical knowledge of the games used (LttP, and OoT). Furthurmore this is a rough draft. I tried to keep it organized, but there is a small amount of jumping around. I dunno if I'll make a video, but I just wanted to practice writing about this kind of stuff, and this seemed like a good topic since it's something I've been thinking about. I don't expect people to read all of this. It's pretty long, and a lot to digest:

 

 

What Makes Memorizing Bosses Fun?

 

This is part of an ongoing series were I will talk about the concept of memorization in video games. This is one of the core aspects of the multi-billion dollar interactive medium we love so much. Memorization of enemy patterns, level layouts, and stage hazards can be found in virtually every game ever made, in some degree. From Pac-Man to Portal, it's all about knowing what to do. It's also about how well the game lets you know what you can do.

 

For the first part of this, we are going to talk about bosses. These are big, epic encounters against a massive (or sometimes not) foe. They generally test your skills and knowledge of the game up to that point, and may demand that you refine those skills a bit further to beat them. What makes a good boss so fun? What makes you enjoy fighting bosses? What makes a bad boss annoying?

 

Before we get into that, though, I want to say something upfront now, that I will probably mention throughout this post. This is all my opinion based on my own experiences, and thoughts while growing up, playing games. This is just one gamer telling other gamers what he thinks, and why. You don't have to agree but, remember, I'm not in any way trying to present this as fact. People have different tastes, and preferences in games. That's why there are a bazillion genres. So, with that, let's talk about bosses, one of the mover universally known concepts in gaming, even to those who don't play video games!

 

Great Bosses:

 

Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (LttP) does bosses really well. The battles are fast paced, you are on your toes against these massive foes, and have only your reflexes and wit to get you through. For an old, 2D action game to have some of the most memorable and exhilarating boss fights says a lot about how well they are designed, in spite of how the graphics might look by today's standards. The combat mechanics and controls over all here have aged really, really well.

 

But why are these bosses so fun? I think it boils down to creating an intense experience, and telling the players what they can and can't do through quick lessons in the form of attacks. These movements are remembered, and you can begin to form a strategy based on the visual information, and audio cues they give you. You learn its attacks eventually, and then you will figure out how to hurt it once you are comfortable moving around it. This is trial and error game design in a nutshell. This can be bad, and has been bad in some games, but here is why it works so well in LttP. It's the pacing.

 

Trial and error can work if it is paced right. Never once, during any boss fight in that game was I forced to wait a long amount of time. The battles are always moving. You're always dodging an attack, you're always looking for an opening. The only exceptions are Ganon himself, or the Agahnim fights which I'll come back to later on. Mostly, the pacing is just so right here with these battles. It really feels like I'm fighting this boss, and my ability against it is based purely on what I've learned, and how I use it. I'm not waiting for it to show me its weak point, that I can hit 4 times before it goes back on the offensive. No, instead, if I figure out a LttP boss's weak point, I am able to quickly, and completely annihilate it in a fast, satisfying time.

 

I'm not saying “there's no waiting, at all ever” but the waiting that is here is very short, and it is all done in a way which accents the experience, not dampens it, at least for me. That's why I think they are well designed. They are hard, maybe even daunting, but the entire pacing of these encounters is based on you, and your skill alone. It still amazes me how a game made in 1992, still holds up so well with its boss encounters 25 years later in 2017. The take away here is, you are never forced to wait on unnecessary “cycles”.

 

Cycles.

 

Remember how I mentioned you are not forced to wait around for any of these bosses to expose their own weak points, and the pacing is all dependent on you alone? Well, enter cycles. I want to preface this with, these are not always bad. In fact, I still enjoy a lot of bosses like this. Like I was alluding too earlier, Agahnim, and Ganon in LttP use cycles. Kind of like the ones in OoT, which, I'll talk about as I poorly segue into a game that does bosses with cycles pretty good, for the most part.

 

Ocarina of Time has some good bosses. It even has two or three great bosses/ minibosses. I'm going to talk about how these bosses rely on cycles, and why that takes away from what they could be, but I'm also positing that they are still fun, based on their wow factor, and visual stimulation from the myriad of ways you fight them in-game in spite of the waiting around. Plus, I said they are still good. Your skill can still make most of these battles in OoT go faster.. just not as fast as I'd like it to based on what I know as a player.

 

As opposed to LttP allowing me to fight the boss as slowly or quickly based on my skill and knowledge, cycle based bosses in OoT and subsequent 3D Zeldas introduce the industry wide problem of the game letting you fight the boss. That might sound dumb when talking about, well, a video game, but here's what I mean: To explain this, we're gonna take two bosses from each game. So, we'll look at Queen Gohma from OoT. We'll also look at the Helmasaur King from LttP. I picked these two bosses in particular, cause I feel they best represent the styles of battles encountered in each game, of course, taken with a grain of salt, this is opinion territory here.

 

Let's start with Queen Gohma then. You enter the room. The game does a great job of establishing an atmosphere here. It's the deepest part of the Great Deku Tree, and you have entered the room that houses the source of the curse plaguing the Deku Tree. Then, you hear it, right after the door, and seemingly, only way out slams shut behind you! You hear.. something, and you look around. Then-- you see it! That giant orange eye, attached to that thing on the ceiling! Oh, no, I hate spiders! Or.. crabs? Whatever it is, it's coming for that ass boi, and you better run!

 

The battle starts when the Queen, with a very prominent, uh-um, ovipositor, crashes to the ground (Could you put a crab/ spider hybrid monster with a giant dong in an E rated video game? Gender inequality, I tell ya!). All jokes aside, the battle begins with the creature coming towards you. As games have evolved to be more complex in the six years between LttP, and OoT, more mechanics must be explained, and taught to you, and this was the first 3D Zelda, but basically, Navi just tells you to avoid its slow and predictable movements, and wait for it to rear up, to attack you. At this point, you gotta whip out your sling shot, and stun it by pressing two buttons to shoot it in the eye. At this point, you can attack it. After you attack it so many times, it becomes invulnerable, and skitters away to return to the ceiling. You have completed the first Cycle of the battle. A cycle here is defined by the time in which it takes you to stun Gohma, land a few hits, and when she gets up, that's a new cycle.

 

Let's pretend this is your first time seeing this boss. Here's how it would go. You must wait for it to go up the ceiling again, and shoot it again while it's on the ceiling when the game gives you the cue to target it. This time though, it will drop eggs on you as it moves around the ceiling. It drops eggs from its massive, veiny.. ovipositor that just gives fuckin' birth to smaller Gohmas which you'll have to fight if you wait that long.

 

Once hit with another slingshot pellet while on the ceiling, she crashes down, to be stunned again, and hit by your unrelenting sword. If this is your first playthrough, this will take you from 3-5 stuns to deal enough damage to seal the deal, and deliver the 'coup de grace' to Queen Gohma. Three to five cycles, basically. Cycles aren't bad here, but they are indicative of another design philosophy that the developers embrace later on. Here's why this battle is still great, and one of the best bosses in the game.

 

Skills v. Exploits

 

The amount of time she is stunned is a sort of timer, but it also reacts if “x” amount of hits are taken. This is gonna get a bit technical later, but this is important for addressing my point I'm going to make by the end of this. This is a “cycle” in its purest sense. Enemy does something, you avoid, you stun, you hit, it is done taking damage, and it repeats. But, hear me out, I said these were good, I'm not gonna shit on it-- yet.

 

Though Her Majesty, and all main bosses in this game use cycles, they are okay in Gohma's case because you can break the cycle if you are fast and skilled enough. You can learn more, and use your skills to literally kill her in one cycle. Now, this is technically considered an exploit of the original coding and is probably not intended, but here is how it works. So, normally, you'd stun Gohma, lock on, and slash away, probably landing 4-5 hits per stun cycle. What you can do here though is, you can jump slash her with a Deku Stick. This requires pressing one button, then holding another button while again tapping the first button. Attacking with a jumping stick is worth four regular “B” button sword hits which is done by pressing the B button and watching Link's slash animation hit Gohma's stunned model.

 

It gets better! Then, if you crouch with the shield, and stab, the stab will oddly do the same amount of damage as your last attack which in this case was your max-stick-powered jump attack. You can also stab very fast by holding R to crouch with the shield, and B to stab. Faster than you could ever swing your sword normally, which does 1/4 the damage from this stored stab attack. This is likely an oversight in the code which stores the damage value to apply to the stab, for some reason or another. So, four well placed stabs will kill her in one cycle, never even giving her the chance to climb back up the walls. You're killing her in five hits, essentially.

 

Back to the “technical stuff” I mentioned earlier. There is a timer of sorts with these cycles. What if you don't hit stunned Gohma with the sword at all? She will get up in about 5-10 seconds after being stunned. Hell, if you never talk to Navi, you might not even realize you need to hit her with the sword while stunned. I derped as a kid fighting Ganondorf, cause I thought merely reflecting his magic attack was enough to hurt him, and it did not occur to me for a while to go over and slash him. His reflected magic only stunned him, opening up a window to attack. But using the method mentioned above lets you take her out in one cycle, or five hits, which is the amount of predetermined “damage” you can do while she is stunned before her code tells her to get up, and be invincible-till-stunnable again; a trademark of cycles.

 

However, the perceived exploit lies in how you hit her fives times to deliver enough damage to kill her. Bosses do have HP, but it is tied to cycles unless you exploit stuff, or play the game in a way not intended. Gohma's code assumes you're just using standard B sword swipes. In short, it's tracking the amount of hit connections, not the damage from the hits. You are relying on skills here, but you are also exploiting the game's timers, and mechanics. The game is waiting for either five 'hits', or “x” amount of time to pass; whichever comes first. The game does not expect you to jump with a Deku Stick to do 4x damage, then follow up with four more stabs of equal damage dealing 20HP in one cycle instead of 4-5HP in one cycle.

 

I'd argue you are fudging the game by storing damage to kill her quickly, when something like that should be a part of the design in itself. Why can't I be rewarded for my skill and be able to figure out how to interrupt a bosses' attack/ idle cycle? You're not meant to here. You're meant to wait for the game to let you. Gohma is still a good example of a boss with breakable cycles because you can legitimately shoot her in the eye while free-aiming when she is on the ceiling before she drops any eggs with her giant spider dong. Your speed and skill rewards you here for thinking outside the box, and being proactive about it. This would let you know that you can do this in the game, right?

 

Any time you break a cycle in OoT, it feels like you are almost getting away with something, not like the game is letting you be good. Hence, my problem with cycles. Maybe it was intentional, and I'm way off the mark here, but there is nothing in game that lets me know I can do that. I figured it out on my own which is good for Gohma, but it is not consistent. There are bosses with unbreakable cycles. Sure, you can do it in two, or three, but why have cycles? LttP's monsters didn't need them.

 

A small tangent, but worth noting; there is also a major difference in game direction to consider. OoT's bosses are about spectacle. It was the first 3D Zelda. That's a really big deal and everyone was learning how to make 3D games so of course it's not going to be perfect. There were no 3D Game Design courses in the mid 1990s. These guys wrote the book on it. As the first 3D Zelda, it had to feel epic. With the advent of 3D games, they wanted to make them more cinematic experiences. They want to show you that you are powerful, and can stun this behemoth monster. They want to show you that you can wail away on it, and it makes you feel like a bad ass. I love these bosses still, but they require you to wait around a lot without giving you anything to do besides A) dodge attacks, or B) find a part of the room to camp in till it lets you hit it. I can't put my finger on it, but it's like they are simplifying the combat in a way from LttP.

 

Gohma is the best boss to talk about for this from OoT, cause she is an example of what I'm trying to say I like about boss battles. Cycles can be fine, but let me be good without waiting!

 

Back to the Helmasaur King

 

Well, that was a deep rabbit hole. Now, we'll talk about the Helmasaur King, the other boss mentioned a while back. This won't be quite as long winded, I promise. Probably my favorite LttP boss. I picked Helmasaur King (HK) because it is a truly dynamic battle. It has multiple strategies viable to use, and for me is exemplary boss design. You have to learn what to do. It has cycles in the sense that it cycles through its attacks, sure, but you are never waiting for it to let you hit it. The game lets you take as much, or as little time figuring out how to hit it, and that's why it's gold. It's the complete opposite of the bosses in OoT. That's why HK's design is so timeless. That's why it's almost always a new battle each time I play the game. There are so many variables.

 

Next, I'm going to talk about how the battle with HK works. This hopefully won't be as long as Gohma, since I have already covered cycles ad nauseam by now. Admittedly, LttP isn't quite as atmospheric as it's sequel, but that's another topic. So, you enter a room at the end of the dungeon after going down a long, dark hallway. When you enter, the door slams shut behind you, and this bombastic music starts playing. The room is lit up, and you can immediately see a giant.. thing with a large blue mask, and a menacing tale. It's orange clawed legs carry its spikey and foreboding carapace from side to side and back and fourth. It occasionally stops to shoot splitting fireballs at you, and it will also wind up an attack with its tail which can hit on either side of the room. You are thrown right in. There is no intro. There is no start up. It's just you and the Helmasaur King, and you need to immediately figure out how to hurt it.

 

This battle is tense because like with cycles, you have to remember things. You need to memorize its moves. How it moves, where it moves. If you die here, which is very easy to do on your first playthrough you will have to walk all the way back to this room. That really raises the stakes, and brings up another small point in design between the two games. In OoT, the boss rooms are always located very close to the entrance. Of course, you need the boss key, and obtaining it is usually the focus of the dungeons. If you die, you can get back to them easily, save for the Shadow Temple. In LttP, all dungeons are like the Shadow Temple. The boss is at the end of the dungeon, usually very far from the entrance. Some people hate this, but I wanted to mention it, cause this isn't the boss's fault. How you get to the boss doesn't effect the battle. It might effect your feelings on retrying the boss, but it should reflect badly on the level design before the boss itself. How hard would it have been to have a quick warp to LttP's bosses? It's direct sequel, Link's Awakening got hip to this. Some people fairly view this design as fake difficulty, and a bad example of trial and error design. But, I digress.

 

Back to the battle. Essentially, instead of stunning the boss, exposing it's weak point, and repeating, you have to expose it's weak point, then it remains exposed and you must take it out. A lot of LttP bosses to have a phase where they must be weakened, but it never bogged it down for me. HK is unique here cause there are two ways you can remove it's mask, which is required before you can start doing real damage. You find the Hammer in this dungeon. Another Zelda trope is using the dungeon's item on the Boss. You make use the hammer to smash it's mask. This is risky though. You have to get really close to its mouth, and you may not know if it can eat you or not, it it is your first playthrough. It moves around constantly, while pausing every few seconds. It's predictable, but still tense. You have to be one step ahead of it. You can chip away with a few hammer pounds, and the mask flies off exposing its face, and a large green orb in its forehead (Zelda Trope Alert: Eye Bosses; bosses with one, or more large eyes).

 

If you don't want to get up close and personal, you can use bombs, which is also a viable strategy for removing the mask. It's arguably safer, too, if you don't feel up to dodging HK's movements at a point blank range. It only takes three well timed, and thrown bombs to remove the mask. The tension here is, you have a finite number of bombs, and no way to refill during the fight, so you still need to be careful.

 

The maskless form moves around even faster, and shoots fireballs more frequently, and uses Tail Whip more frequently. You still have two viable ways to attack it. Technically three if you wanna use the Ice Rod. You can wail on it with the sword, which, like the hammer is more dangerous, or you can pick it off from afar with arrows. After landing a few more hits, it explodes for some reason, and you are victorious.

 

Everything about that battle came down to you. You weren't waiting to be told, “Okay, attack now”. It just works so well.

 

Conclusion

 

When I think about either game, I look forward to LttP's bosses more. I know what to do, and can do it quickly, like a real, well equipped hero. I'm not waiting on the game to let me do it. It's all me. In OoT, most bosses make you wait. King Dodongo is one of the worst offenders by far. No matter what you do. No matter how fast you are, you can only kill it in 3 cycles. It's four cycles, if you don't use the jump attack, but that's all the leeway you have. I can't interrupt its roll with a bomb. I can't do anything to influence the battle during its attack cycle to speed it up. I'm waiting and watching. Nothing I can do as a player can influence the pace of the battle to make me feel like I'm good at the game on subsequent playthroughs. Instead of a dynamic battle with strategy, I'm just going through the motions here. This boss looks awesome, and feels epic, especially when I was 9. After the spectacle wears off, and I'm just playing it as a game, it's not as fun. It's too easy, and I'm sitting on my hands half the battle. This is likely cause I have played it so much, but it shows its age more than LttPs mechanics. This is a persistent problem with OoT's bosses.

 

Then you have bosses like Blind in LttP. It moved around constantly, demanding quick reflexes, and good timing. The pace is all up to you. Kholdstare in LttP. This is the closest monster to having a cycle. Like the HK, you must remove a defensive layer of ice. You must avoid attacks, and use your fire rod to do so. Then, the boss splits into three giant snowballs. You can try to corral them together, but if you get unlucky, you will have to take them out one at a time. Then, you got Bongo-Bongo in OoT. Probably the closest thing to an intended cycless boss. You have to stun it's hands, sure, and it exposes it's weak point, but you can one cycle it legitimately. It's stunnable parts are always visible, and hittable too. Bongo-Bongo is probably my favorite boss in OoT. Another great OoT boss is Barinade. It has cycles, yes, but this battle shows that that can work. It's still skill based, and there's a few ways you can fight it, but it does still require waiting to an extent. Then, you got Twinrova. This is the purest example of cycles done badly, and this battle drags, and drags, and drags, and it so damn boring. There is only one strategy. Once you know that, wait wait wait. This would have been the perfect time to reward the proactive player by letting me use Fire and Ice arrows, but nope, you must wait for them to randomly attack your mirror shield. It's such a missed opportunity, and it makes the Ice Arrows (which you get in this section of the game) feel completely useless.

 

It might be unfair to compare bosses from an early 3D game to a late 2D game. The rule books were different. Developers were learning. I chose these two games cause I'm very familiar with both of them, and also very familiar with the meta-game of each. I can't stress this enough; even though I'm ripping this game a new one, you must understand, I still enjoy this game a lot, and play both titles once a year or every 18 months, at least. This is just food for though. This is a beloved game that is almost 20 years old. It was a new frontier in game design. And it has flaws. So does AlttP, but that's going to be another post, about memorization in level designs. I hope I was able to somewhat clearly articulate what kinds of boss battles I like, and why.

 

This might not seem like it has much to do with memorization, but all these battles have one thing in common. You must interpret, and remember enemy behavior. What makes that fun is how dynamic it is for me. I want to be in control of the battle once I learn what to do. I get dying, and sucking at first, but once I figure it out, I should be rewarded. These are two very different boss design strategies and one simply makes the memorization and trial and error aspect more fun for me. Thank you for sticking around to the end. Or, if you just skimmed to this last paragraph, thanks for giving it a good ol' college try. I know it's long. :)

 

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#17 Cukeman

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 01:22 AM

I should clarify what I meant.  Dying in and of itself isn't the problem it's the forced backtracking and such for something the player has no way of knowing the first time around.  This is why we have health bars and such.   So your health is your mistake counter, how many mistakes you can make before you have to go back.  That is 100% fair.  But the games where the character is a One Hit Wonder, it shouldn't be a memorize and regurgitate situation, but rather something the player can pick up on as they're given subtle clues and hints.  Because otherwise, you WOULD be wasting your time doing the same thing over and over again, just trying to memorize exactly what happens without any telegraphing.

 

I used LaMulana as the example because it gives you just enough to lead you in the right direction, but also not overdoing it like A Link to the PAst's ginormous cracks in the walls.  You have to put the pieces of the puzzles together yourself, they just give you the clues and lore you need to figure out out.  That is totally fair.  But being totally blind and being expected to die numerous times just to progress isn't fair or challenging, it's just a waste of your time.  Why play a game like that when you can instead play a better game that has proper telegraphing and/or hints and clues?

 

I agree, backtracking can be a big problem. I don't play many one-hit-death games, I didn't like I Wanna Be The Guy, because it was just too much. The games I like do let you take multiple hits from most enemies, but I'm okay with the occasional insta-kills. I can totally agree that nothing but insta-kills is not appealing; I just think a smattering of them here and there don't ruin the game and are fun if done right. Most things should have hints and clues, but a few should be a surprise I think.

 

What I like about A Link to the Past is that not all cracks are bombable, and IIRC there are some unmarked bomb spots (certainly not many). I agree with you that you shouldn't be blind all the time in order to progress, I just think those types of difficulties are welcome now and then if they're not ridiculously hard.

 

I think that if the game is forgiving, I can do without telegraphing most of the time. Sometimes it's fun to learn by seeing what happens if you don't get it right. So yeah, I want a game to be mostly forgiving, but also think some well implemented insta-kills can add some fun variety as long as they're not too crazy.

 

The health bar thing is true, and that is exactly how Rayman 2 handles it. Games with OHKO's usually offer you a way to get by better once you do figure it out, and that is part of the challenge. It's not for everyone though, and I don't see myself ever revisiting Contra when, for me, there are better games out there. It's a risk/ reward system. I'll agree that games like Contra, and even SMB to an extent can waste loads of time by killing you, and asking you restart, but I don't mind it, cause the game is telling me I messed up in a clear way. If I don't learn to jump on a Goomba, then I won't get past the first screen. In SMB, it is also possible to reach world 8-1 in about five minutes if you know what you're doing.

 

This was refined when saving became a thing, and games like DKC are more bearable because of it for newcomers, even if you do have to replay a couple of levels. I'm talking mostly about platformers here, cause they, as a genre require memorization in a high degree to be good at, and run through levels. That's why people also like Classic Sonic so much. It's really hard to actually die in those games, but stage hazards can mess you up, and drop you to a lower, slower part of the level. Sonic 2 does this best, with Zones like Chemical Plant, and Aquatic Ruin. These are all different styles of the same thing. The level is telling you that you messed up. Be it a death, game over, or losing time, either way, there's gotta be something. I would rather not restart a large chunk of level, but if it is a new game that I haven't played before, it simply means I'm not good enough yet.

 

Losing interest in a game like this is fine, there's games I've quit playing cause I got stuck, and just didn't feel like doing it. That means it wasn't well enough designed for me as a player, not that the design choices are automatically bad for everyone.

 

Puzzles in LttP are like this too. I'd argue that there aren't really traditional puzzles in that game. It's more like, navigation puzzles. Use this item to get there, push that block, pull that switch, go find that key. It's not exactly exhilarating in concept alone, but LttP's memorization is in the level layouts themselves. These elements combine to make a situation that you can be in control of based on your skill. You can save time if you know the layouts, and can breeze through the dungeons. This also applies to fore mentioned deaths in platformers.

 

DKC does handle the challenge well by giving you ways to get around the one-hit deaths (a partner and barrels to restore them) and frequent saving means you only have to master a hard level the one time (generally). Mario lets you pick up free lives to help avoid game overs and ease the potential frustration. Sonic is great at letting you try again without redoing the whole level thanks to the ring system, though I feel Sonic is a bit TOO forgiving in that respect for my tastes (not a criticism of the design, I'd just like them to add a hard mode).

 

Good point about getting to know the paths in platformers, the original Ninja Gaiden games are pretty brutal, but (personally speaking) I can manage to learn the levels and fall into the game's natural flow. I realize that series is not widely enjoyed, but it's great in my eyes.


Edited by Cukeman, 24 September 2017 - 02:55 AM.


#18 Nicholas Steel

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 02:24 AM

DKC does handle the challenge well by giving you ways to get around the one-hit deaths (a partner and barrels to restore them) and frequent saving means you only have to master a hard level the one time (generally). Mario lets you pick up free lives to help avoid game overs and ease the potential frustration. Sonic is great at letting you try again without redoing the whole level thanks to the ring system, though I feel Sonic is a bit TOO forgiving in that respect for my tastes (not a criticism of the design, I'd just like them to add a hard mode).

Pretty sure almost every 2D Mario platformer has checkpoints as well, including Super Mario Bros. on the NES. the Donkey Kong Country games also use checkpoints to alleviate the frustration though the SNES games iirc included a hidden Hard Mode that removes all the DK barrels from the levels (except bosses?) and maybe also removes the checkpoints.
 

What I like about A Link to the Past is that not all cracks are bombable, and IIRC there are some unmarked bomb spots (certainly not many). I agree with you that you shouldn't be blind all the time in order to progress, I just think those types of difficulties are welcome now and then if they're not ridiculously hard.

What cracked walls can't be bombed? If you mean during the escape from Hyrule Castle you can return to that room later in the game via the Graveyard when you have either Bombs or the Pegasus Boots.


Edited by Nicholas Steel, 24 September 2017 - 02:28 AM.


#19 Cukeman

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 02:52 AM

What cracked walls can't be bombed? If you mean during the escape from Hyrule Castle you can return to that room later in the game via the Graveyard when you have either Bombs or the Pegasus Boots.

 

Dark Palace is just one example, LttP has cracked walls that can't be bombed everywhere:

 

http://www.finalfant.../darkpalace.png



#20 Nicholas Steel

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 05:15 AM

Oh yeah, okay. In that case you can identify if it can be bombed or not by tapping the wall with your sword and if it makes a special sound it can be bombed. The game also doesn't feature shortcuts that can be opened up by blowing a hole in the wall (unlike the original NES game) so you can also use your map to determine if a cracked wall is possible to bomb. There's definitely no unmarked bombable walls (they're marked in caves if you pay attention).


Edited by Nicholas Steel, 24 September 2017 - 05:17 AM.


#21 Cukeman

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 07:53 AM

Oh yeah, okay. In that case you can identify if it can be bombed or not by tapping the wall with your sword and if it makes a special sound it can be bombed. The game also doesn't feature shortcuts that can be opened up by blowing a hole in the wall (unlike the original NES game) so you can also use your map to determine if a cracked wall is possible to bomb.

 

 

Yeah, sword tapping is a nice feature, and checking the map helps too.

 

 

There's definitely no unmarked bombable walls (they're marked in caves if you pay attention).

 

There's at least one, the southwest storage shed in Kakariko Village:

 

https://www.spriters...ts/86/88873.png


Edited by Cukeman, 24 September 2017 - 08:00 AM.


#22 Nicholas Steel

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:58 AM

Dammit, stop making me look bad! At least in that case you'd be mad to not be curious about that building.


Edited by Nicholas Steel, 24 September 2017 - 08:58 AM.

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#23 Orithan

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 10:47 AM

I think the bottom line behind memorization challenges is that they need to be intuitive (ie. something that you can easily pick up on) and the iteration time between messing up and attempting it again needs to be short (ie not an instant game over death that wipes your progress since your last save).

 

A majority of memorization in combat comes from learning how to approach and engage each enemy through the quick lessons given to you through their attacks and movements. The Legend of Zelda does very well at engaging the player in active combat; presenting the player with a variety of different foes, most with different patterns of attack and movement. Keese are weak but they are often slippery foes and often come in groups, Moblins test your capability to fight slow and bulky enemies, Darknuts are formidable knights that test your ability to duel against sword and shield while Beamos encourage you to watch your surroundings at all times. All of these involve trial and error to some extent in order to learn, but it is done in a way that feels natural, intuitive and you are given enough of a chance to learn from your mistakes.

In regards to puzzle difficulty, Lufia: Rise of the Sinistrals is a fantastic example of a game that challenges you on your ability to solve puzzles. All the puzzles are intuitive and easy to grasp the basic concepts of and mistakes can normally be undone in a matter of seconds; wherever it is by undoing your previous actions or resetting the puzzle through the game's convenient and easy to access Reset spell.

 

Where it goes wrong, it can go really bad. Paper Mario: Sticker Star and, to a much lesser extent, Colour Splash are really bad for trial and error difficulty, particularly in boss battles. A lot of the time, the game's puzzles are unintuitive, often requiring you to have a specific item (usually a thing, which are random objects with well over-the-top animations which have no business being in the game) in your inventory. If you didn't come with the specific item or you didn't use it in the correct manner, you are often required to repeatedly backtrack for a long time to get another opportunity at solving it by buying other items. The bosses are not any better - They usually require you to apply their weakness, which are usually specific things as I described earlier, at exactly the right moment. You generally have one shot at it and if you miss it or use the weakness at the wrong time or improperly, you lose because you either die long before you can defeat the boss or the boss outright curbstomps you with a unblockable superattack shortly afterwards. And then there are gems like where using the spike helmet on the fish boss in Sticker Star resulting in an instant game over death because it somehow blows up on you and dealing overkill damage...

Yeah, not fun. Thankfully, these problems are mostly endemic to Sticker Star, though Colour Splash also had a few really bad moments.


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#24 Cukeman

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 07:55 PM

Going on a bit of a tangent, but an example of game design I really don't like is when you're playing Majora's Mask and you can't buy a red potion until Koume (or is it Kotake) tells you she needs to be healed. That makes you navigate the "lost woods" twice. It's worse on replays because you want to buy the potion before you meet her to save time.

 

I'd much prefer if the witch in the shop couldn't make potion until you got the pig mask and found a mushroom, that would give you a practical reason to not get the potion early, rather than just "you didn't read my sister's dialogue box yet". Then you could earn the potion by getting a mushroom before talking to the witch who needs healed, or you could find out about the mushroom quest by talking to the witches, letting you nail two birds with one stone.


Edited by Cukeman, 24 September 2017 - 07:56 PM.


#25 Fiyaball

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:34 PM

I'm fine with memorization, unless if it's something that downright REQUIRES writing it down, like the infamous Middle, Right, Left, Left, Right, Middle, Right, Left, Right, Right, Middle, Right, Right, Left, Middle, Middle, Left, Left, Left, Right, Left, Left, Left, Middle, Middle from Super Paper Mario. I'm pretty sure I still have the manual that my sister wrote that on somewhere, as wll as the one with Doopliss on it...


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#26 Cukeman

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 02:27 AM

I read through your long post now Anthus and I think you make some good points, though we disagree on some minor things.

 

One important thing your post brings to mind is the difference between bosses on your first playthrough versus bosses on replays. That's a big topic worth discussing. Case in point- Twinrova, the first time I fought it, ages ago, I remember defending myself then watching for a chance to attack that never happened, then I realized, OH I have to aim the magic back by NOT Z-targeting, so I can aim with my shield. Figuring that out felt like a clever discovery, I was younger at the time, sure, but it was still something I did on my own, it wasn't given to me. Then the witches combine and again I'm defending myself, but don't get a chance to attack, sometimes I get caught in a blast, then I realize, OH the hot element is cancelling out the cold element on my shield, which I need to charge three times, and then, after that I need to go slash her. Again I had to earn it, I had to figure it out on my own. That battle made me feel clever and resourceful.

 

Then on replays I knew what to do and it was dull waiting around like you said. I think it's important to realize that some things weren't meant for replay value and that's okay, but things that stand up to repeat playthroughs do have superiority in many respects. I don't want to say bosses designed for replay are ALWAYS better, that sense of discovery in the Twinrova battle was terrific for me even though it was a one-time experience. You can't make a great replay boss that hinges on discovery because we remember things.

 

Overall I, like you, give the replayable experiences higher marks, but one-time experiences can be great too.

 

I don't agree about Gohma though, that boss bores me because it feels like breaking an egg, it's mostly a stationary target and it's over all too quickly. I've only played that boss the expected way, and my problem is it's too short and fragile; shortening that experience even further isn't going to make it anything but worse in my eyes.

 

Still, I do like when you have to learn on the fly rather than waiting for the boss to reveal it's weak spot.


Edited by Cukeman, 25 September 2017 - 02:28 AM.

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#27 Anthus

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 01:47 PM

That's a good point too. I kinda touched on it, but not really in any detail. A lot of OoT's bosses do have a certain wow factor, and rely somewhat on spectacle, and Twinrova was a cool boss when I was a kid, for sure, like King Dodongo. I can see what you mean about the value of that first experience outweighing the need to make it replayable in some cases. That's probably what the developers were thinking.


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#28 Cukeman

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 05:55 PM

I do really like your appraisal of the Helmasaur King, I think that's spot on.


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