59 replies to this topic

[Aevin]

Why do you think it's a good idea to block easy mode players from content they would enjoy by putting content they wouldn't enjoy in their way?

 

I tend to play on easier modes myself. I enjoy seeing the whole game, with all the bosses and attacks, without the frustration of constantly dying. I like moving on to see new areas, cool new enemies with neat attacks without dying hundreds of times. Isn't it better for more players to be able to enjoy the game?

 

It does get tricky when talking about stuff like attack patterns, though. I feel like seeing the boss's full array of powerful attacks is something casual players would want. It's a presentation thing that I know I personally appreciate. But it also makes sense to nerf it a bit so that it's fun to experience but not frustrating or out of line with the rest of the quest. It's a tricky balancing act, and it's difficult to satisfy everyone.

[Mani Kanina]

But Aevin, unless you're a leetzors ZC pro like NJF, you don't DESERVE to face the bonus optional content!

[Deedee]

On the subject of the Superboss, I can't wait to fight him on the hardest difficulty, die 300 times, then get some good RNG and win, and brag to everybody.

But seriously, an extra phase for the hardest difficulty would be insanely difficult, making your victory the biggest bragging rights award so far.

[CyberGamer1539]

I think that superbosses are great! However, I would probably block the boss and reward on Easy difficulty, because If people actually want a decent challenge, then they would play on Normal or Hard mode! If people choose easy mode, then they don't have the guts to face a hard superboss!

[Aevin]

Again with the "You don't deserve to have fun with this content"? Honestly ...

 

What I don't get is how people feel that making the content accessible to more people somehow diminishes their experience. It changes the experience, sure, but only so it's better suited to the things different players value. You value a super hard boss, and you get that. I value getting to see a new boss, but don't care about difficulty, so I get that! Everybody wins, right? Why do I have to have my "guts" evaluated before I can have a good time with a game?

 

I'm afraid this is getting outside the scope of the original topic, but this attitude really bugs me. Besides, Evan has already made it clear there won't be hard-mode specific content.

[KingPridenia]

If it's a superboss, it should be 100% optional. I do agree that it should be very hard, maybe even borderline unfair. I would say something around that of Tartaros and ??? from IoR could be fair, maybe a bit harder. My opinion is that a superboss should be aimed at those hardcore players that want a real challenge and the fight of their life. It's optional for a reason. I can understand it being a barrier to softcore or just in general more casual players, though. As for difficulty based behavior? Sure, as long as it means something like:

 

Easy Mode = Boss is hard as hell and will definitely cause some rage and make the player want to book a flight to visit you

Normal Mode = Boss most likely will cause broken controllers/keyboards and make the toughest players cry

Hard/Hero Mode = Boss will make you either turn to drinking or put you in an asylum from all of the sanity you lost attempting it

 

I haven't really played too many games with superbosses in them, but using Kingdom Hearts 1 as an example, my first time playing on Normal, both Kurt Ziza and Phantom wrecked me. I had to get to level 70+ and try multiple times before I was able to win. Ice Titan wasn't really as bad, just annoying as hell. But Sephiroth...damn. Only being level 80+, grinding out for the Ultima Weapon and 2-3 hours of attempts (resetting every time I failed so I didn't waste items) allowed me to see the One-Winged Angel's demise. At first it was me failing against the Heartless Angel move. Later, I was getting wasted by his Omnislash. Then, just when I thought I had him beat, his ultimate attack, his projectile spam, his sudden Heartless Angels and constantly shouting "Dodge this!" put me back in my place. Mind you I was only 13 at the time and now I have much better reflexes and can read patterns much more easily, not to mention I know a lot more about the game than I did as a 13 year old. Honestly, that was a time beating Sephiroth at all made you the man, not just severely underleveled, with Kingdom Key and without getting damaged.

[C-Dawg]

Again with the "You don't deserve to have fun with this content"? Honestly ...
 

Look, some people want to float on the lazy river, others want to swim furiously uphill on a fish ladder. There's room for all types.

Me, I enjoy a game a heck of a lot more when beating it was a massive challenge. Your mileage may vary.

[Aevin]

That's exactly what I'm trying to say, actually. The trouble is I'm frequently getting the vibe here of people looking down on casual players or advocating for excluding content. If we're in the same river, can't I see all the scenery too, regardless of my pace?

[Moosh]

Look, some people want to float on the lazy river, others want to swim furiously uphill on a fish ladder. There's room for all types.

Me, I enjoy a game a heck of a lot more when beating it was a massive challenge. Your mileage may vary.

And that's why easy modes should be a thing, yeah? You can enjoy swimming uphill to beat a quest, but someone else might want a more laid back experience, so you stick in an easy mode. Both sides get the experience they want, no harm to either side.

[C-Dawg]

Just because there are different types doesn't mean every game has to cater to everyone. Beating castlevanias 1 is special precisely because there is no easy way to do it. Lots of people have seen the ending to OOT personally. AOL? Not so much.

Anyway, even if you make a hard game, people can go watch a let's play anyway. So it's win win; someone gets mad props for beating it, everyone else sees the story. Everyone's happy!

Edited by C-Dawg, 22 February 2016 - 10:42 PM.

[Alucard648]

What about giving super-boss an exclusive ability to one-hit-kill Link, even with gold ring and all heart containers? Like one invisible Gohma...

[James24]

Developers will make games that suit their own difficulty because its really fun for them to play at that difficulty.  To make a game that is balanced for someone else's difficulty is very difficult and there's not a whole lot of incentive to do so.  For most quests at most you'll get is a damage buff or reduction because that's cheap and easy.

 

Darkflamewolf liked easy quests and simply buffed the enemies to make her quests "extreme" but when I was playing her extreme quests I never felt comfortable with the artificially buffed difficulty.  It always felt unnatural simply because wolfie wasn't making the game she enjoyed at heart.  In IoR, criticisms from players who enjoy easy difficulty settings often touched on difficulty.  This is probably because at heart IoR is a challenge quest and simply nerfing the damage makes it artificially easy.

 

What you are considering Evan, is to write a portion of your quest that is specifically catered to a difficulty that you don't enjoy.  I don't think it will work simply because you can't put yourself in the shoes of someone who likes that kind of difficulty.  Plus, you'd have to spend a significant amount of time on something that you probably won't enjoy playing yourself - and unless there's a very good incentive to do this, it probably won't be happening to any great extent.

[Yloh]

My opinion: If you want to make an easy mode, I would honestly go with the easy approach and just adjust enemy damage and/or HP. I don't think it is worth it to add extra attack patterns on Hard mode. Don't get me wrong, I love seeing new attack patterns on Hard mode, but I wouldn't think the effort would be worth it. Now if you were working on an indie project that involved you selling your product, that would be different.

[Shane]

I think that superbosses are great! However, I would probably block the boss and reward on Easy difficulty, because If people actually want a decent challenge, then they would play on Normal or Hard mode! If people choose easy mode, then they don't have the guts to face a hard superboss!

I don't think that sounds quite right. Keep it in easy mode and simply just let the easy mode players themselves decide if they are up to killing a hard superboss and not assume on their behalves just because they took easy mode.

[grayswandir]

Is it really that hard to dumb down attack patterns instead of reducing damage? I mean, a flat 30% reduction in all enemy attack speeds would probably be on par with a 50% damage reduction in terms of difficulty, and it'd be a lot more fun to play through.