142 replies to this topic

[Gleeok]

I just saw this movie a few hours ago and here are my initial thoughts. *Note* I haven't been following any discussions, arguments, or reviews of this movie so these are just my own initial thoughts without any bias.

Non spoiler version: [The previews accounted for over 14 percent of the total film length!! (153 min movie) This is unacceptable and I demand blood! ... For instance, Rampage?! I'm already getting cramps from sitting during all the previews and then they show a 3 minute preview for Rampage? I can smell what the Rock is cooking all the way from the back row and let me tell you it smells like shit; I just vomited in my mouth a little... anyhoo-]

Spoiler

Overall it was a great movie. I can't argue with critics giving it a 8 or 9 (or better) out of 10, I would probably do the same.

Underall, from the perspective of it being the "bridge" in a trilogy, I kind of hated it. It was kind of fucking terrible. Who the heck is this Snoke guy? Who cares. What's Luke been up to for the last (40?) years? Literally nothing. What about the sacred Jedi Texts? Forget about it. What about any other plot point from the last movie you wanted explaining? Watch the next movie and maybe there will be something in there on it.. or maybe not. Nobody knows, not even Disney. Why does anything happen at all in the Disney Star Wars Universe? Don't ask me, I have no idea.

As far as pacing goes it was good, except I found the middle of the movie incredibly difficult to follow. It's hard to pinpoint exactly, but everything around the Benicio Del Toro sequence stuff is where I sort of nodded off and took a mental nap.

I wasn't very happy with any of the Luke story as well. They could of easily taken 10 minutes out of the middle of the movie and made "The Last Jedi" less of a whiny little bitch. It also would have been nice if there could of been at least one light saber fight in the movie considering the amount of non-saber rattling throughout.

I also get the impression that part of the new Star Wars direction and agenda is purposely killing off all everything from the original trilogy to get to the real new next Trilogy debuting in 2020. If that's the case then why cast and write around the original Trilogy and cast instead of something else? I don't know man, I don't know...

So in summary: This is a good movie, however I can see how there would be some major fan backlash about the creative direction of the series.

[Mitsukara]

This is a little off-topic but not really: Mark Hammill did a sketch to promote the movie with Stephen Coblert on the Late Show. It's very... 1980s variety show-ish, but with a few more reference jokes. Reminds me of that Muppet Show Star Wars episode with Mark Hammill in the ESB era.

Edited by Mitsukara, 29 December 2017 - 05:09 AM.

[Cukeman]

Wow, I think this is a very insightful movie review on Last Jedi!
I'm very surprised because I've strongly disagreed with Pat on other movies.

Be warned, the video has spoilers.

discussion

I love his point that this is a movie about failure, having certain expectations that don't work out the way you imagined, having the rug pulled out from under you in a good way, being surprised. Stories that don't stick to formula.

He also has a great point about Rey not (yet) having a heritage. Luke was a nobody too. Sure Vader's his dad, and he inherited some measure of the force, but without Obi-Wan to train him, would he ever have become anyone important to galactic history? I doubt it. Maybe Vader would have eventually found and trained him, but still I don't think he'd become such an important figure left to himself.

[The Satellite]

reply to TS

Do you buy the theory that Snoke wanted Kylo to kill him at that moment to complete his dark side training?
(the whole Sith always kill their master thing)

More thoughts in addition to a response to the above

I don't necessary believe Snoke planned it this way, though I wouldn't put it past them to go with that angle. However, I do see it as a callback to Palpatine's line in Return of the Jedi: "Strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey to the dark side will be complete." Guess what Kylo did, as well as where he ended up? Whether or not Snoke planned it that way, it's certain that the writers did.

But here's the other thought I had: When do we get to learn more about the Knights of Ren? The next film, I hope, because they'd been built up only to show up in just a mere flashback/vision scene in Episode VII. I'm sure that wasn't all of the First Order's forces that chased down the Raddus, and there'll be more ships as well as the Knights themselves elsewhere, but it seems weird they didn't show up here when they could have potentially been the most relevant. We'll see how IX goes, I suppose.

[Cukeman]

@TS

That's a very neat thought about the Knights, I guess I assumed Snoke's Imperial Guards were the Knights, but now that you mention it...

 

EDIT:

 

additional note

Hmm, I don't have a problem with how the sequel trilogy is handling the big ideas, but I'm beginning to think the sheer number of ideas is too much, we didn't have time to explore Snoke, Phasma, what the lightsaber visions were about, the Knights of Ren (yet), the content of the early Jedi texts (I get that we're moving on from them, but it would be nice to know more about them)... 

 

Maybe they need to have less ideas with more focus

Edited by Cukeman, 02 January 2018 - 03:41 AM.

[Adem]

Okay, uh. What. I finally got around to seeing this film after much anticipation. And I have to say, I was pretty disappointed.

 

I'm just gonna write things as I think of them. I haven't really read anyone else's thoughts yet, so I apologize if I'm repeating, but I just wanted to get everything down. Get ready for some crazy ranting.

 

Spoiler

My biggest issue with the film is that it feels like all of the most interesting aspects of TFA were stamped out mercilessly. For example, who is Snoke and how did he bring rise to this new order? Welp, it doesn't matter because he's deli meat. He's built up to be this all powerful Sith lord--potentially the strongest we've seen yet, so strong he could literally link the minds of Kylo Ren and Rey--and then Kylo just cuts him in two like it's not a big deal. Secondly, who are Rey's parents and what is her lineage? Drunk nobodies, dead in a ditch! I do like the concept of Rey not being from a previous Jedi lineage because it shows that anyone can become powerful with the Force. But the way they built up her parentage reveal was so frustrating and unfulfilling. It is worth mentioning that the reveal came from Kylo Ren in his effort to turn her, so I guess there is some room for doubt regarding his honesty. But as far as disappointments in the film go, those were the most glaring to me.

 

Moving on...

 

That mission at the beginning where Poe's like, "We gotta blow up the ship!" felt sort of out of character, no? And also, how did they drop bombs on a spaceship in space where there is no gravity?

 

I thought Rose was somewhat endearing, but rather poorly written and completely shoehorned in. There was a lot of subtlety in Poe and Finn's relationship in the last film that hinted at some LGBT representation in the Star Wars universe which was so fucking cool to me, even if it was non-canonical. However, the directors said in interviews that the sexual tension between them was unintentional, and it felt like Rose's character was almost entirely dedicated to writing those subtleties away. Not every character needs a canon romantic subplot! I'm not saying they should have had Poe and Finn tonguing it out on the big screen, but their chemistry from the last film was almost completely lost in The Last Jedi to make room for Rose. And I swear if Poe and Rey end up making the next generation of Jedi babies, I'm dubbing this trilogy a fanfic. Also, why did Rose kiss Finn when the rebels are literally about to be blown to smithereens?

 

The concept of Leia being able to use the Force was such a great idea because we know it's always been inside her, but it was so poorly executed that it bordered on a bad Tumblr fanfiction.

 

I disliked Holdo. She had very little character development, was introduced pretty randomly, and had next to no personality. Despite all of this, her death seemed more heroic than that of Luke Skywalker...That heroic and meaningful moment should have at the very least gone to Admiral Ackbar, who was killed off with hardly as much as a nod.

 

The whole bit where they go to the casino was underdeveloped and also...nothing happened? I didn't quite understand who that stuttering man was or why he chose only to escape when Finn and Rose arrived. The whole arc was a pretty big waste of time and attention, all leading up to the reunion of Phasma and Finn which felt a bit random. Phasma had the opportunity to be such an interesting villain. She was criminally underused in The Force Awakens, and I was really hoping that would be rectified in The Last Jedi. But the battle was over before it had really even begun, and like Snoke she became a wasted character of interest. Even with what little build up there was, the fight between Phasma and Finn felt underwhelming. 

 

Lastly, dare I say...While Han's death in the last film felt meaningful and purposeful, Luke's death felt hollow, cheap, and pointless. They even fake you out like, "Luke's dead!" and then it's like, "No, he's not! He's a badass Jedi!" and then it's, "No, wait. He really is dead and this time we'll make him disappear to prove it." I get that his purpose was fulfilled and what not so he faded away, but the way Luke was portrayed in general really bothered me and that ending for him was just the icing on the cake. 

 

OKAY. Now that THAT is out of my system, I guess I should say something positive? I did like the pivot in how they conceptualized the Force, compared to the prequels. I enjoyed the campy humor (though it was arguably sometimes a bit cheap and at the expense of a good moment). I'm not sure how I feel about Yoda's return, but I was sweet to see his interaction Luke and that was arguably the most Luke-esque moment that Luke had in the film. (I'm also really glad they used the puppet instead of CGI. That was cool.) The team up between Kylo and Rey was interesting and fun to watch, but again the payoff wasn't all that great and it suddenly turned into The Empire Strikes back with Kylo trying to get Rey to rule the galaxy with him.

 

Overall, I'm disappointed (if you couldn't tell ). If you ask me, Episode IX is going to need some crazy good writing to wrap up this trilogy in a way that feels satisfying and interesting. For people that liked the film, I'm genuinely intrigued to hear what you have to say in response to these points! Though I'm obviously dissatisfied, I'm open to hearing other interpretations and trying to see some good in the film.

[The Satellite]

Alright Adem you asked for it here I go!

 

Spoiler

I do agree that, in regards to Rey and Snoke, there was a lot of buildup that amounted to nothing. In Rey's case, I think it's a lesser sin, but I wanna dissect the buildup that I can remember offhand from The Force Awakens. When she asks BB-8 where he's from, he says it's classified, and she says "Me too, big secret"; but perhaps that's part of her desire to repress the truth and imagine she's something bigger, carried over from childhood? But then there's Maz in the cantina asking Han "Who's the girl?" before it cuts without an answer, unless that was a red herring. Then why did the lightsaber call to her specifically? Maz specifically states who it belonged to before adding "And now it calls to you!" Just a bit of history or something deeper?

 

However, supposedly Abrams planned from the start for her parents to be nobodies, so the revelation in The Last Jedi wasn't really a slap in the face to any buildup... That's why it's a lesser sin to me.

 

Snoke though. Went over this in one of my posts but you can't have this mysterious master of the dark side who, according to supplementary materials, witnessed the rise and fall of the Empire, and not explain more about who he is or where he got his power before killing him off. Love how he was killed, but not the lack of explanation. It's not like Palpatine, whose entrance was slowly built up towards in the OT. Snoke was thrust upon us with no explanation other than he's a dark side master and Supreme Leader of the First Order.

 

I didn't think Poe's attack was out of character personally. As for the bombers... apparently the ships themselves have a gravity field and they use that to drop the bombs on a target. My issue isn't that, it's how incredibly inefficient these things are when we had much better bombers back in the day: Y-wings. Faster, more defensible, and their bombs were basically energy grenades that make more sense than these rickety new things.

 

Re the loss of Poe/Finn chemistry, I didn't see it that way so much as they just didn't interact that much to be able to do so. Plus, Finn's already had the hots for Rey, although I'm left uncertain if he's switching to Rose now or still wants to pursue Rey. Although I'm equally hoping Poe/Rey doesn't become a thing because it'd seem a little random. I think it was just a little thing to show two heroes of the Resistance finally meeting.

 

Leia using the Force was fine, it was just a weird shot.

 

I hadn't thought about Ackbar taking Holdo's place until I read it in other places and I absolutely agree with this. Almost feels like a gut punch that he was simply blown out of the bridge, although gut punching our childhood seems to be the point of these films, so I dunno. Anyway, I think Holdo was fine ultimately because she was playing things close to the chest, not wanting her plan to leak because everyone suspected a mole. The audience is made to suspect she's the mole, and that's probably what Poe believes, hence why he doesn't let her in on his ultimately futile plan.

 

The only (and best) defense of the casino storyline is this Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/...144662506180608

 

Now Luke... Luke is the one major issue I have with the film. The entire thing seems out of character. I actually buy that he made a mistake in nearly killing his nephew before immediately regretting the notion, and that one moment of weakness led to Ben's final push to the dark side. I don't buy that Luke would go into hiding and not face his mistake, leaving his friends and family and the galaxy to be slaughtered by the dark side. "They don't need the Jedi," "It's time for the Jedi to end," blah blah, sure, but uh, you stopped the Empire before? Saved Vader? Maybe worry about the flaws of your religion after you've crushed the upstart First Order? I could've also bought that he sought out the First Jedi Temple to find new knowledge key to getting back to the true roots of the Jedi, then he could come back stronger with Rey. I just really wanted to see Luke in his element, wielding the green saber again, and doing something awesome. He did do something awesome, but I kinda hate that we're just systematically killing off our OT heroes. Ultimately it's a character arc that would be perfect for any other Jedi character... but not Luke. At least, not in my eyes.

[Adem]

Spoiler

Right. Of the two, I would definitely call Rey's parentage reveal the lesser of the two sins as you said. And the more I process it, the more I'm getting over it, but the build up was just so intense that I still can't help but feel annoyed about it. Snoke is really what got me, though. Rian Johnson was quoted saying, "It would have stopped any of these scenes dead cold if he had stopped and given a 30-second speech about how he's Darth Plagueis. It doesn't matter to Rey. If he had done that, Rey would have blinked and said, 'Who?' And the scene would have gone on. And I'm not saying he's Darth Plagueis." I'm not saying I was gunning for him to be Darth Plagueis but it was such an active choice to have no explanation. That grinds my gears. Hahaha. Like you said, we have this supreme leader thrust upon us and we are lead to believe he is the most powerful Sith lord, and then he's gone without so much as a sneeze. I did think the way he was killed was interesting and well done, but it felt a bit anticlimactic given the lack of backstory.

 

I'm not saying Leia shouldn't have used the Force at all. But the shot was very awkward and weirdly timed. It was also strange to me that they used that moment to show Kylo's internal conflict, only to have him swing chaotically to the dark side. Also forgot to add, Leia giving up on Kylo at the end was quite strange to me...What mother gives up on her child, especially when he's all she has left? 

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one to suggest Ackbar as a replacement for that moment. I've always liked Ackbar so when he was sort of nonchalantly blown to bits, I was really sad. But like you said, no one is safe. Haha.

 

The Twitter thread is pretty interesting. It definitely helps me see a little bit more of a point to the whole sequence, but it's still a bit of a reach. Even if it has meaning, it was poorly written and could have been executed better, or at least had a more tangible payoff that doesn't require deep analysis. 

 

I read this meme earlier that said something like, "The thing Star Wars fans are truly best at is debating whether or not the movies they like are actually good or not." I laughed because it's true.

[The Satellite]

Spoiler

I mean to be fair, your son's already killed your husband and, despite a conflicted hope spot earlier, he's now bearing down on you with a large army to completely eradicate you. Losing faith in your son is a bit understandable in that situation.

[Adem]

Spoiler

Well, when you put it that way... Haha. Fair point. I'm intrigued to see how Carrie Fisher's death will influence the way the story unfolds from here...From what I understand, Episode IX was supposed to have Leia in the forefront so they've had to shift everything around.

 

EDIT: Did anyone else notice Rey had tucked the Jedi texts in a drawer on the Falcon? I think Finn was grabbing a blanket or something, and they were just nonchalantly sitting in there. I guess that gives more meaning to Yoda's line regarding what Rey "already possesses". Sly d00d.

Edited by Adem, 04 January 2018 - 03:45 PM.

[The Satellite]

Spoiler

Never did notice that but enough people did that I trust them. Same with the little boy at the end apparently using the Force to call his broom, I missed that as well. Wonder how Rey's going to put these texts to use... hopefully in a similar vein to the New Jedi Order from the original Expanded Universe. One that doesn't forbid emotions and ultimately ran a lot more smoothly than the old Order.

[Cukeman]

[too long to quote]

 

 

I'm hoping some elements were cut out to make the story more focused moving forward. 7 had too many threads and characters, if you look at ESB and RotJ you really go deep into the connections between a small handful of characters and that's when the story gets rich, complex and satisfying. That's the direction we're moving I hope.

 

I do like TFA, but looking back on it and 2/3 of the new Star Trek films, I'm beginning to think J.J. is too ADHD, he needs to have more focus on fleshing out and fully telling a story rather than having a whole bunch of little-explored subplots and characters.

 

I think Rian Johnson did awesome, and I'm not too thrilled about J.J. coming back unless he learns to focus and go deeper into characters. I feel Rian brought that strong focus on character development back, cutting stuff to make it happen, and I want that character focus to continue.

 

Part of me wants to give J.J. some benefit of the doubt, as TFA was setup, but I'm starting to think unfocused storytelling with too much stuff going on and too many subplots could be a trend with him.

 

EDIT:

Ackbar and Texts

IIRC Ackbar  was in 7 and not in 8 at all. Are you saying he was in 8? I don't even recall him being mentioned.

 

I also didn't notice Rey saving the texts or the kid using the force on a broom.

 

EDIT 2: Also, TS I'd rather not have to counter-act the whole Jedi are non-emotional, need to loosen up stuff. I don't buy that's who they were in the OT, and that whole absurd characterization of them in the PT is better left ignored.

Edited by Cukeman, 04 January 2018 - 05:06 PM.

[Adem]

In response to TS:

Spoiler

Yeah, I did catch that. It was subtle but my friend and I both looked at each other like, "Ooooh." Speaking of that moment actually, I was a bit confused as to how the child got the Rebel ring? Did we ever see Rose give it to him or did he already have one?

 

EDIT:

In response to Cukeman:

Spoiler

Fair enough, my friend. Character development is important and I would agree with you if just I felt the character development was worth the cuts that were made. I guess there just wasn't a lot of development in TLJ that resonated with me. As I already mentioned, I didn't care for Rose as a plot device, and Luke's portrayal was frustrating. I guess Finn had some decent character development, but Poe was pretty stagnant and Rey just sort of learned how to harness the Force a bit more. And Kylo Ren was still just yelling and hitting things a lot. Hahaha.

Edited by Adem, 04 January 2018 - 05:03 PM.

[Cukeman]

@Adem

I think Luke got the most focus, so I can see how it'd be a problem if you didn't like what they did with him.

Personally I did like it.

 

People say Luke wouldn't become a hermit because of what happened.

I'm not saying they are wrong, I just don't feel strongly about that either way.

 

The part I do really like is how Luke gets pulled out of that situation for a good ending. If he's going to be put in that kind of situation where he's a cut-off hermit (for better or worse) I do like the resolution.

 

I feel Rey's development was her starting to become more centered (from Luke's instruction) and introspective (the cave). And both Rey and Kylo got to explore some new Force abilities, although that's mythos more than character development. We didn't do much with Kylo I agree, other than cement his path to the dark side. You know, in case killing Han didn't make it clear enough (it did for me). I guess he was still having feelings of doubt after that and had to deal with them in some way, so it is good to come to a resolution about them. If Kylo is a lot more determined in his role as a villain next time, then I think that's time worth spending on him, but I agree that he needs development on his identity, not just his role as a dark side user.

 

[Russ]

EDIT:

Ackbar and Texts

IIRC Ackbar  was in 7 and not in 8 at all. Are you saying he was in 8? I don't even recall him being mentioned.
 
I also didn't notice Rey saving the texts or the kid using the force on a broom.

Ackbar is in the bridge when it's blown open. When Leia magics herself back into the ship, somebody notes that they lost most of the high command, including Ackbar.

Anyways, I agree with just about everything Adem said in his initial post. The movie was entertaining, but ultimately, it mishandled so many things that I can't give it any higher of a score than 6.5/10. Most of my complaints have been listed out plenty here already (and most of them again by Adem), so I see no reason to get into the details, but I am a bit disappointed in the whole thing.