38 replies to this topic

[Shane]

I don't care what graphics you use as long as they look good and you use them good. That said, I don't see any problems with the tileset (regardless if it has aged or not, some of us like retro goodness every once and a while) nor using it. You use it rather well, and I like the dungeon palettes most.

Edited by Charizard, 21 May 2014 - 01:13 AM.

[anikom15]

I think the 'graphics does not make the game' is certainly well-intentioned but ultimately flawed and disregards an integral artistic aspect of games. I also see parallels of the popularity of 'retro' styles since the late 2000s with the popularization of the 'historically informed performances' of Baroque music in the late twentieth century. I digress. Graphics can very much make a good game or even a mediocre game better. And yes, I'm using that vague term because that is what society has been using for decades to describe the visual art in games.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

I think the 'graphics does not make the game' is certainly well-intentioned but ultimately flawed and disregards an integral artistic aspect of games. I also see parallels of the popularity of 'retro' styles since the late 2000s with the popularization of the 'historically informed performances' of Baroque music in the late twentieth century. I digress. Graphics can very much make a good game or even a mediocre game better. And yes, I'm using that vague term because that is what society has been using for decades to describe the visual art in games.

So you're justifying it by saying that it's okay to use the words incorrectly as long as everyone thinks you're doing it the right way? I find that argument flawed, but whatever.

 

I see your point about the retro-inspired visuals that clearly has become increasingly popular within the last ten years - especially in the indie community. I do think a lot of that has to do with the fact that it's much easier to create a pixel-based tileset rather than devoting a team to developing a full 3D enviorment. There is also the element of nostalgia that plays a big role in this too, of course.

 

Like it was stated earlier in this thread, Classic is old and certainly flawed, but it has it charms. If you feel it's the right look for the project you're working on, then I can do nothing but support your decision 100%.

[strike]

I only use classic and have been using it for about five year so you can most likely tell how I feel about it. It's so clean and it looks really cool when used correctly. Also it's much bolder than other tilesets; the pallets are stronger and the objects are larger. To me it also feels more realistic for some reason, less stylized and more right to the point of what it's showing you. It's also so much faster to make screens with, not slowing you down. So, yeah, I like  it a lot. I'm glad other people like it too! It used to be that there was a general negative vibe against classic, but I guess that's no more.

 

-Strike

[anikom15]

So you're justifying it by saying that it's okay to use the words incorrectly as long as everyone thinks you're doing it the right way?

This, my dear, is The Fundamental Theorem of English.

[DragonDePlatino]

Graphics is a very wide term. It's also a technical term. When you say that a game has bad graphics, you're not making any sense. What's 'bad graphics'?

 

Hmm...when I read this, I thought you were going to get into "graphics vs aesthetics", but you just kind of danced around the subject without ever really touching it. I highly recommend you give this a watch, as it much sums up your whole argument and is pretty relevant: https://www.youtube....h?v=5oK8UTRgvJU

Edited by DragonDePlatino, 21 May 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

Hmm...when I read this, I thought you were going to get into "graphics vs aesthetics", but you just kind of danced around the subject without ever really touching it. I highly recommend you give this a watch, as it much sums up your whole argument and is pretty relevant: https://www.youtube....h?v=5oK8UTRgvJU

I watch Extra Creditz on a regular basis, but I agree, I didn't exactly dive deep. My reasoning for this is that most of us here should be reasonable enough to understand what I'm saying - and I do admit that it is nitpicking, I mean, we're talking about wording here, and I'm sure we could have a great discussion on the subject, but I don't feel like it really has all that much to do with the question about the classic tileset. I feel like I needed to say what I did in order to then explain why I don't really think it 'matters' what tileset you pick, as long as it's a choice driven by the idea that you think it's the right way to go.

 

I don't see classic as being 'better' than any of the other tilesets out there, but that's not to say we can't still have a subjective opinion when it comes to which ones we prefer. I can tell you right now that I will most likely pick a visually pleasing quest over one using the classic set, but that's a very irrational thought, because my choice is driven by the idea that if you've got the visuals down, maybe you know what you're doing when it comes to the rest of the process as well. I mean, screenshots, no matter what your quest is about, is still going to be what drives most players to your quest. But then again, it's not as if there hasn't been visually pleasing uses of the set, there's tons of people who use those assets in a way Nintendo could never even dream of. I don't have that skill.

This, my dear, is The Fundamental Theorem of English.

Right... right... no, you're just using the word wrong.

[SyrianBallaS]

Graphics don't matter that much, the classic tileset is generic but can look somewhat original if modified here's some example

 

Great graphics, bad game: Skyward sword

mediocore grahics, good game: Sonic CD

 

So whatever tileset you use is only a plus, the core design is what makes a great game

Edited by GhostKnight22, 22 May 2014 - 12:52 PM.

[DragonDePlatino]

Graphics don't matter that much, the classic tileset is generic but can look somewhat original if modified here's some example

 

Great graphics, bad game: Skyward sword

mediocore grahics, good game: Sonic CD

 

So whatever tileset you use is only a plus, the core design is what makes a great game

 

Wait, whaaat? Skyward Sword was a bad game? And Sonic CD had mediocore graphics? You could argue the latter but what's your reason for hating Skyward Sword while loving it's graphics? I thought it was a very reasonable game even though it's dungeon progression kind of made the game feel short.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

Wait, whaaat? Skyward Sword was a bad game? And Sonic CD had mediocore graphics? You could argue the latter but what's your reason for hating Skyward Sword while loving it's graphics? I thought it was a very reasonable game even though it's dungeon progression kind of made the game feel short.

It's not a bad game. It's a horrible Zelda-game though.

 

There's lots of issues with that game I could bring up, though I suppose that would be going even further off-topic than I already have with my posts in this thread. If you or someone else made a thread about what we think of SS years later though, I'd probably to chime in.

[anikom15]

Mediocre graphics, good game: Skyward sword
good graphics, bad game: Sonic CD

FTFY
Anyway, could you really not have thought of a less controversial example? This is a Zelda fan site after all.

[JetBox]

Honestly, I said I think Classic Tileset is the best, but to me, it doesn't really matter. Graphics are a minor portion of the game. They are only there so the player knows where he is and what's around him. Some of my favorite games were made in the Classic Tileset, but not because they are Classic, but they payed more attention to gameplay then graphics. I think games nowadays are focused on what looks the best and how can we make it more detailed. People at my school make fun of Zelda because the graphics look childish and it's not extreme enough. But when I see the games they play, all they are is the same, recycled garbage thrown at you with a reskin. I mean, paying $70 for a new Call of Duty game, even though you bought one for $70 just two months ago! To me, graphics are just schemes to get people to buy the game. Because most of the time you can't actually test the game for yourself, so all you have to go off of is the graphics. Everyone that has said Zelda is stupid has, and I asked them this, never played a Zelda game before, so they don't know how the gameplay is. And that is why I think Zelda games are the best. Every game that comes out has new gimmicks and it thoroughly entertains each time. Beside spin-offs and CD-i games, which Zelda game has been bad? Some can argue their cases for some of the games, like; Zelda 2 was too hard, so it sucks, or Four Swords was too short and boring, so it sucks, or anything else, but in the end, all of the Zelda games are amazing in their own way, unlike shooters and sports games, with no originality.

 

So Classic Tileset, your graphics aren't the best looking, but in the end, you do your job of making a game, and that's what really matters.

[anikom15]

JetBox, it's always been that way. It's not a new phenomenon. Before SS, Zelda games were the pinnacle of graphics technology, yes, including Wind Waker. Even SS is pretty good considering the hardware.

You don't have to hate on shooters and sports games though. I'm pretty sure 'originality' isn't exactly a goal for a soccer simulation game. There are some really creative shooters, too.

[DragonDePlatino]

Hmm...so far, it seems that the general consensus is that the tileset doesn't really matter. It's the game underneath and it's aesthetics! And I can agree with that. But with development on Koten Advanced in high gear, I've been pretty eagerly following this thread to see how people would change Classic...

 

I mean, Come on, guys! I can understand you love Classic as a whole, but is there anything very specific you would have changed about it? Any frustrations with tiles or wanting to change character designs? Or combo organization? Additional v2.5 support? Classic works but it ain't perfect.

Edited by DragonDePlatino, 22 May 2014 - 05:12 PM.

[anikom15]

Change: nothing
Additions: possibly, if they fit. Lightwulf seems to know how to draw for Classic. He gets it.

What in 2.5 does Classic not support out of the box?

You might want to start a thread in the custom quest forum since this is somewhat off-topic.