6 replies to this topic

[Jared]

Hey guys, so I'm having a bit of trouble designing my first temple in my quest. The thing is, I already have my item chosen (And script made), and even my gimmick decided. However, I just can't seem to make it flow correctly. I've tried designing it three times already!

 

Can anyone give me some insight on how you make your temples? Maybe it could help me too.

Edited by Jared, 28 April 2016 - 05:35 PM.

[Nightmeres]

i really don't have a set method but how bout design it backwards, make the item room and design  backwards from there? or draw it out as best you can on something like paper or paint, ect

Edited by Nightmeres, 28 April 2016 - 07:56 PM.

[Matthew]

http://www.purezc.ne...950#entry995262

 

Try this thread!

[Naru]

http://www.purezc.ne...topic=69950&hl=

Is there a difference to this topic? Since you use the term temple instead of dungeon. Also so far you don't want to keep it secret, telling us the gimmick/item could help.

If I catched enough from your screens so far I could imagine that deviding your dungeons into different areas could work for you. OoT desert temple comes to mind.

[Saffith]

Not that I've done a whole lot of these, but I'll show you how I'm doing things lately. Here's a simple example with red/blue block switches and the bow.

First, come up with a list of obstacles and related events, preferably in roughly the order the player should deal with them. They don't have to be once-per-level things, though; #1 is used twice in this example.

1: Simple block puzzle
2: Shoot statue
3: Defeat enemies requiring arrows
4: Statue shooting puzzle
5: Find solution to statue shooting puzzle (#4)
6: Complex block puzzle interacting with crystal switches

I should've numbered 6 lower, but I already made the images.

Next, make a flow diagram for the level. The dungeon is seen here as a set of discrete areas containing certain items and divided by obstacles.



Hopefully, that's understandable enough. From the entrance, you can reach a key guarded by a block puzzle, a statue you can't activate yet, and a locked door. Behind the door, you can find another key, the compass, and two more locked doors. And so on. The C-H and D-L transitions represent hitting crystal switches. You can step through it to see the possible ways to progress through items and obstacles and confirm that the level can't be made unwinnable.

Those tend to be a lot more complex, but that's the general idea. It can take several tries to come up with something I'm happy with. It's usually more a process of refinement than starting from scratch each time, though.

Even for a small level, I don't like this one. It's a bit too straightforward, the switch blocks aren't adding much, and there should probably be a shortcut from M back to D or B. But it'll do for an example.

Once that's worked out, each area is labeled with a letter (already done above), and then I'll make a rough sketch of how large each area is and how they fit together.



Very rough. That, too, can take a few tries. But once it fits together properly, it's not hard to refine it into a proper map.



I reworked M and L slightly. But whatever.

Regardless of how you make it, don't jump straight from finishing a map to making screens. Make a rough version first - just plain, simple rooms that fit together properly with the necessary items and a handful of enemies. That way, you can sort of play through it without putting too much work into it. It's one last chance to find problems while they're still easy to fix.

[TheLegend_njf]

I used to be very bad with dungeon design, but lately I've been getting a lot of praise for my dungeon design, so I'll share with you what I have learned to have caused this improvement. 

 

I tend to prefer designing dungeons with multiple floors. The reason for this is that it adds design depth. You can see your dungeon from a 3 dimensional scale rather than a 2nd dimensional template. You can see your dungeon as a 3d structure rather than a 2d template.

 

Every room I make is designed with a lot of thought. Before I consider a room complete, I ask myself "Is this a room that just anybody can make" (ex: standard square 4 door room that just about ANYBODY can make), and I always just try to make the room different or unique.

 

I try to be gameplay focused, so much so that my dungeons these days are considered too gameplay focused. I define "gameplay" simply how Link interacts with the game environment. I suggest always finding ways for Link to interact with the dungeon environment. In some of my recent dungeons, there's so much to do that there's almost too much to do, My dungeons are borderline exhausting for this very reason. I think that's better in my opinion than a stale empty boring dungeon, but I could probably just have some rooms to serve as a "break from the gameplay" in future dungeons. 

 

If there is anything I can emphasize most importantly however is connect your dungeon together with earned shortcuts. Be it a ladder, bridge, portal, door, or anything you can trigger to unlock that connects point A to point E for example. Though I'd try to avoid portals because they are a lazy way of approaching this. But I suggest always find ways to connect those difficult parts of the dungeon together. Think of the dungeon as a whole, and connect those loose ends so people aren't forced to make these long backtracks. My recent dungeon Danger Candy did this, but it could have been done better as players still complained about backtracking. Earning shortcuts through dungeons is just as rewarding as earning items and keys, think about that.

 

Freeform dungeons are always better than standard dungeons, and always find ways or excuses to branch your dungeons in multiple different directions. But keep in mind how these branches could connect to each other by whatever clever means necessary.

 

This is how I approach decent dungeons today without blueprints. Blueprints work for some people, but they do not work for others, and I'm not a blueprint kind of guy, so most of my dungeon is really on the fly. 

 

Everything in this post is what I've learned when I played games like Isle of Rebirth, The Forbidden City, and Moosh's quests when I kept asking myself "What does these dungeons all have in common". They all flow well because the entire dungeons are well thought out and are just generally connected well all around, almost like a web in a sense. 

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 30 April 2016 - 03:31 PM.

[Anthus]

I offer this: If you are struggling with dungeon designing, try making it simpler. I know that sounds kind of dumb at first, but let me explain. If you are using themes, you have a good start already. A forest dungeon can be mazey, and focus on enemies, and solving navigational puzzles. If you have a fire themed dungeon, surely there's going to be lava, and maybe fire enemies. Maybe have a magic ice block you can push onto lava to make it walkable? Water dungeon? Watery, Yes. Within these themes, you can come up with a lot of different ideas. It's easy to be too ambitious, and feel like it isn't good enough. It is a hard hill to climb.

 

Some will work better than others. It can be really hard to get over "ZC block" and if you start to doubt yourself it only gets harder. I say, make dungeons you feel comfortable with, and make each one focus on a different, if simple concept. This will help them feel varied, and help disguise the simplicity a little. You are also a really, really good map/ screen builder, so that will make them interesting to play as well. Not every screen has to have a ground breaking gimmick. It just has to be fun. This probably isn't the most insightful advice, but I hope it helps.

 

Saffith, and NJF also have some pretty solid points of advice. I hope you can overcome this challenge, and I'm looking forward to your project.