61 replies to this topic

[Dawnlight]

For this thread, I think we should go over some of the most common mistakes or misunderstandings newbies make in ZQuesting. Please note that the purpose of this thread is not to bash on newbies but for benificial purposes to help them out into becoming a better ZQuester. And of course, everything stated here are all OPINIONS. There WILL be statements which some people may disagree with.

Here's what I think are the most common mistakes...

Massive Quest = Quality - The people who think this probably played endless hours of Hero of Dreams, BoaB, Lost Isle or any other massive quest. Newbies would most likely think making their quest as massive as these other quests would mean they made a quality product. But there are a few things a newbie must know before attempting to make a massive quest. If you are making a massive overworld, make sure each screen you make has a pupose and not being an excessive screen. One flaw I found in my old Shadows of Dawn 2.5 Demo was that I made my dungeon ridiculasly long. So long it probably took about an hour to complete.

DoR is so good that it will make my quest stand out more - DoR may be a nice tileset, but that doesn't mean you can instantly make an awesome quest with it. You wouldn't believe how many newbies fail to use this tileset properly. It takes time and practice to make full use and take advantage of this tileset. If you don't think you have the skills necessary to use this tileset, then use another tileset. There are several tilesets out there in our database that one may use to make an awesome quest. Don't be allured to how realistic and detailed a tileset is.

I want to be Elite. Better than everyone here in PZC - Let's face it. This is what was probably in your mind the first time you laid your hands on ZC. Your ambition to become the best of the best. The one who trumps all. While it is a good self-confidence goal, don't let this ambition overwhelm you. I've seen several newbies come up with over-exaggerated ambitions and goals like a 150,000 dungeon quest or a 5,000 square mile overworld. For myself, I consider this merit as a bonus. I could care less about popularity and becoming this so called PZC celebrity. Remember to always approach ZQuesting as a fun hobby and not to care about being the most popular questmaker in this site.

That's pretty much some of the things I have to say. I would like to hear from you.

[NoeL]

Well... I agree. I've always been against long quests anyway, but maybe that's just my short attention span.

[Evan20000]

About the first point, I disagree with the way you've worded your explanation. I don't think there's any correlation between quest length and quality. It's possible to make a crappy short quest and an amazing long quest. I'd say there's certainly a difficulty difference in making a long quest that grips the player's attention the entire time, but I certainly don't think the two are mutually exclusive by any stretch of imagination.

Edited by Evan20000, 09 July 2012 - 11:09 PM.

[Shoelace]

I agree with you on all of these points.

The first one is very important. If you make a screen, or a dungeon, or anything. You have to have purpose. It has to add to your game. Making an overworld huge and repetitive causes people to get bored.

I like the last one, because everytime I see people post threads, they want all of the attention in the world. Guess what, no one is going to care about your quest in the beginning, and that's fine. You should make the game for you, not anyone else. Make a game that you would actually play. And don't kid yourself saying, you would play it and didn't mean it. Mean it. If you put feeling into it, it will be a good game. My Hero of Dreams game, didn't get any attention when I first showed it off. In fact I showed 20+ screens in SotW and I didn't win one. But I did that because it was getting my game heard, but I knew that people weren't going to care. It wasn't until people played by game that people were like, oh cool. But I didn't do it to be popular, I did it because I wanted to make a game that I would like. And I can honestly say, I love playing my game. And that is the only person that matters.

[Cukeman]

Well I think it's good to be reasonable and not try to do more than you can.

But on the other hand as long as you are taking the time to do something
it's GOOD to shoot for the stars, the end result will only be that much better.

I guess I'm saying that knowing your limitations is helpful, but don't let them limit your creativity
and don't let them discourage you.

Edited by Cukeman, 09 July 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[Bayta]

Here's one to add to the list: Remakes. If you're a newbie and you come running in here saying you want to remake ALttP or OoT or something, DON'T. It will only end in misery.

I guess this goes hand-in-hand with the whole "know your limitations" thing.

Edited by Beta Link, 10 July 2012 - 12:25 AM.

[Octorockoncrack]

Massive Quest = Quality

Yep, I always wanted to make a full 9+ dungeon quest, but that is a whole lot of effort. I was close to completing my first quest in classic, then I wanted to switch to the BS tileset, then my computer got wiped

DoR is so good that it will make my quest stand out more

I tried this one too, then I understood why some people say DoR is confusing. It definitely is a great tileset, but it isn't for me. PTUX has just about everything I need.

I want to be Elite. Better than everyone here in PZC

Oh yeah, Imma make the most super epic quest ever!

Yeah, you learn pretty quick that you can't just waltz in and be a glorious quest maker. You also learn that there really isn't any "best developer" here either. There are definitely people that are a lot better at doing certain things, but nobody is really the best.

I still have the ambition to make a good quest, but I realize it won't become the next Lost Isle.

[Jared]

I find some of these things true at first, but wrong in the long run.

Massive Quests: Personally, I think shooting for the stars (As Cukeman put it) is a great thing for newbies, as I did it myself. I even used the DoR Tileset as my first, besides Classic. You wanna know why? Because it helped with later quests. Does anyone remember how my first map looked?

Here it is. Not very good. But, it set the basis for my growing in Zelda Classic!

My next point is DoR. Its mostly covered above. But you have to start to learn how to sue it sometime, no? Of course you won't do good with it at first. But you have to set a base, and carry on. It's the only way you'll get better. So tileset choice doesn't have to do with newbies in my opinion.

And the last point, being "elite". I did this at first too, with Island Destiny (Map above). But like I said, it helped me grow. Just because you don't finish a quest doesn't mean you're bad. It does feel good to make that announcement quest, it even gives motivation to continue on. I don't see a problem with it, personally.

[TheLegend_njf]

Newbies can make successful "long" quests. It's discouraging to say they can't. I am living proof of tha, I haven't made a short quest yet, and my popular quest takes most players over 20 hours to beat on their first run. But I've been known to be unique and break the rules. But I still believe that there is nothing wrong with noobs making long quests.

Also, your theory on pointless screens is debatable as well, as far as overworld is concerned, we simply don't want to clutter an overworld and make it look less natural giving each screen a "purpose", it's not natural.

But I will agree on one thing, overconfidence doesn't cut it. It is nearly impossible for a noob to aim for the best. I sure never will, because what the F*** do I want to be the best for. I aim to simply provide a fresh experience to every quest, always add something new.

Just make fun quests, make something you can relate to. That's all I really can suggest.

Here's one to add to the list: Remakes. If you're a newbie and you come running in here saying you want to remake ALttP or OoT or something, DON'T. It will only end in misery.

I guess this goes hand-in-hand with the whole "know your limitations" thing.

Sorry, broke that rule too. Living proof sitting right here.

However, despite Souls of Wisdom being a successful remake (is remake even the proper label for it????) I am forced to agree with the majority, remakes are not impossible, but very difficult without a proper hook, but there is no shame in using a hook if you got one.

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 10 July 2012 - 02:02 AM.

[SUCCESSOR]

However, despite Souls of Wisdom being a successful remake (is remake even the proper label for it????) I am forced to agree with the majority, remakes are not impossible, but very difficult without a proper hook, but there is no shame in using a hook if you got one.

I'm pretty sure he meant(and specified) remakes of Games, as in OoT, ALTTP, MC, Bio Shock, etc. Though I'd definitely love to see someone remake that last one. The point is that people come here thinking they could use ZC to remake games like that but don't understand the vast amount of work involved in quest making. They may even do a great job for the first 10 - 20% of the quest but then realize the amount of time and effort needed for a parody of a great game that offers nothing new and quit(or quietly resign) and all the people that got excited about the project are disappointed.

I don't think massive quests should be handled by one person. 6 to 8 dungeons is, IMHO, a long quest. And if it is your first project I think you should focus on a short, light quest to hone your personal method of quest building and learn what you are capable of. I think the biggest fault of "newbies" is overestimating your own abilities and setting unattainable goals. Once you realize you can't achieve the goal you've set within a reasonable amount of time you lose heart.

My advice to newcomers: Aim small, and let your ambition grow with your skill.

Edited by SUCCESSOR, 10 July 2012 - 03:43 AM.

[TheLegend_njf]

I will still argue with that notion, I've never made a quest that wasn't between 10 to 20 dungeons. Right from my early days I always made large quests on my own. Now mind the reality of it they each took years to make and many times They were put to the side for me to you know, live life? But still always been in the background waiting to be finished.

I still believe I ain't far off from being a noob myself, and I've been known to make incredibly large quests which do work. With that as living proof, I still speak against discouraging noobs from following through with a quest idea they love.

I'm pretty sure he meant(and specified) remakes of Games, as in OoT, ALTTP, MC, Bio Shock, etc.

My quest practically is an ALTTP remake dressed up in Zelda 1 clothing. So remakes aren't impossible, but I still advise quest designers to think before they follow through with remakes, just because it worked for me doesn't mean it's a good idea. I admit I took a huge risk, without the proper hook I would have certainly failed miserably.

What was I thinking when I thought my first successful quest would be a Z1/ALTTP hybrid that has over 20 levels, and I could make it my own and believe it would place itself as one of the big ones??? Well, I was a noob, clearly I was thinking "this quest has to get completed! I love it". Everything else was sheer luck and fan approval. That's the bottom line, fans make quests work, but trying to please fans appears disparate and is a big no no.

More often than not, quest designing is like gambling, your currency is not money, but precious time you could be using doing other things. Reward is not as likely to happen as we might think, but does happen and is very satisfying. But that satisfaction wears off quick, and than it's time to move on, or make another. I choose to make another, but not let it interfere with my life.

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 10 July 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[Shoelace]

NewJourneysFire, I think the point is 98% of the new people here don't know a lot about design. If you know and plan everything out, you can do it, but doing it right is an art. It is art that few people have. Like Hero of Dreams, was my first game. I made it big because I knew I would be able do my ideas. However, most people that make long quests, don't know how to make everything feel different. Level 1 should not feel like Level 2. Level 3 shouldn't feel like Level 5.

The key to designing is: "Can ____ improve your game" As in, the screens in your dungeon, the puzzles, and such. Do they add to the game? If it feels repetitive, then No, it isn't adding to your game. This is where most people will stop playing your game. If you don't how to make it feel different, there is no need to make more dungeons. People think just throwing in enemies in different rooms is good design, but it is not.

But again, if you have the design that makes people feel engaged through 50 dungeons where they don't feel bored, then you can do it. As long as it is something that you can play yourself and honestly tell yourself, this is good. Then by all means do what you need for your game.

[Dawnlight]

I find some of these things true at first, but wrong in the long run.

Massive Quests: Personally, I think shooting for the stars (As Cukeman put it) is a great thing for newbies, as I did it myself. I even used the DoR Tileset as my first, besides Classic. You wanna know why? Because it helped with later quests. Does anyone remember how my first map looked?

My next point is DoR. Its mostly covered above. But you have to start to learn how to sue it sometime, no? Of course you won't do good with it at first. But you have to set a base, and carry on. It's the only way you'll get better. So tileset choice doesn't have to do with newbies in my opinion.

And the last point, being "elite". I did this at first too, with Island Destiny (Map above). But like I said, it helped me grow. Just because you don't finish a quest doesn't mean you're bad. It does feel good to make that announcement quest, it even gives motivation to continue on. I don't see a problem with it, personally.

What I meant by the first point is that large quests are NOT a necessity to becoming sucessful. "Reaching for the stars" is not limited to making large quests. You also must consider what will be in your quest. Heck, small to mid sized quests can have a lot of new and interesting things packed in. It's like comparing a muscular person to a overly fat person.

[TheLegend_njf]

NewJourneysFire, I think the point is 98% of the new people here don't know a lot about design. If you know and plan everything out, you can do it, but doing it right is an art. It is art that few people have. Like Hero of Dreams, was my first game. I made it big because I knew I would be able do my ideas. However, most people that make long quests, don't know how to make everything feel different. Level 1 should not feel like Level 2. Level 3 shouldn't feel like Level 5.

The key to designing is: "Can ____ improve your game" As in, the screens in your dungeon, the puzzles, and such. Do they add to the game? If it feels repetitive, then No, it isn't adding to your game. This is where most people will stop playing your game. If you don't how to make it feel different, there is no need to make more dungeons. People think just throwing in enemies in different rooms is good design, but it is not.

But again, if you have the design that makes people feel engaged through 50 dungeons where they don't feel bored, then you can do it. As long as it is something that you can play yourself and honestly tell yourself, this is good. Then by all means do what you need for your game.

That's very well said Shoelace! Very well said. We should build a quest together!

So ya, with that being said, if a noob understands how to keep a quest interesting, I can see it more than reasonable to make it a long quest. I suggest let the noobs try their best, because who knows what work of art will appear next.

[SUCCESSOR]

My quest practically is an ALTTP remake dressed up in Zelda 1 clothing.

I think you are missing the point. Most ZC quests are "practically" remakes. When I say remake I mean a quest made to recreate the game as faithfully as possible without changes, updates, or additions. Not a quest that parodies ALTTP in story and layout.

And as far as dungeons. I haven't played your quest so don't take this as a critique. When I see a quest with 10 plus dungeons I immediately think that all those dungeons are probably indecipherable from one another besides what items are available and a color change. I'd rather have 4 great dungeons over 8 good dungeons or 12 decent dungeons.