40 replies to this topic

[Feenicks]

It really depends on the size of the quest. Small ones should just do fine with heart containers, large ones could use heart container pieces to have more to collect per screen.
Large sidequests, however, should be rewarded with new items or upgrades to existing ones, not a measly heart container/heart container piece.

[Theryan]

If you have 3 initial hearts and 8 dungeon hearts, that leaves 13 HCs to find. If you use HCPs, you need to hide 52 pieces, although you could change HCPs to thirds or halves of a heart in the betas.

It really depends on whether or not you have the space to hide all those pieces.

[Joe123]

If you have 3 initial hearts and 8 dungeon hearts, that leaves 13 HCs to find. If you use HCPs, you need to hide 52 pieces, although you could change HCPs to thirds or halves of a heart in the betas.

Not necessarily, if you only have 16 max hearts like a GB Zelda then it only leaves 5 to find. I can't imagine why you'd need 24 max hearts in any quest to be honest...

[Radien]

1.) Use items to propel the player through the game
2.) Make the items matter; make items fill a gameplay need
3.) Match the effort to the reward

I strongly agree with this model, even though I disagree with the use of HCPs.

Here is an alternative I propose to replace HCPs in version 2.5:
* Use full Heart Containers as rewards; no HCPs.
* If you run out of rewards, increase the max size of the player's heart meter to 20 or 24 (my quest's is 20; I rearranged the heart layout to two rows of 10).
* If the life meter is too large, enhance the danger enemies pose by increasing the damage they deal, using the enemy editor.

Now that we have the option, it makes more sense to use the enemy editor to adjust the challenge level of your quest's battles, because it's a lot easier to change than restructuring all of your optional sidequests.

If you have 3 initial hearts and 8 dungeon hearts, that leaves 13 HCs to find. If you use HCPs, you need to hide 52 pieces, although you could change HCPs to thirds or halves of a heart in the betas.

It really depends on whether or not you have the space to hide all those pieces.

Yeah, but you're thinking of this purely from the point of view of someone who only wants something to give as a reward at the end of each sidequest, but doesn't care how much value it has.

Here's a metaphor for you: let's say you're a kid who does chores for your mom along with your brothers and sisters. Your mom has baked a pie. She counts the number of chores that need doing, and divides the pie into that many pieces. For each chore, you get one piece of pie.

Well, if there are only 4 chores to do, you'll be really motivated to do them, because for each chore you get 1/4th of the pie. Sweet.

But if there are 30 chores to do, you won't give a crap about the pie piece reward, because your reward for each chore will be a tiny sliver of pie that can be eaten in one bite (1/30th of a pie is pretty tiny).

This is why you really need to gauge the value of your rewards against the difficulty of the quest, rather than simply divide your available items equally between the sidequests you want to include.

[Adem]

Don't forget The Minish Cap, it's better and it did it first ^^

Minish Cap used HCPs...

[Joe123]

No no it was the first one to stop using HCPs after they were introduced (I think)

[Adem]

I just checked, and it uses HCP. If it didn't I'd have collected all of the HCs since it's easier. Although I prefer pieces, MC made it too much of a pain. (Don't get me wrong, I loved MC. It just simply enforces the fact that HCs work better for smaller games than pieces do.)

[Joe123]

Oh, my mistake.
I was sure it used heart containers for some reason, but now that I think about it I can picture the HCP graphic from it pretty well >_<

[Fox]

Hm.. I enjoy looking for HCPs, but not for the obvious reason of filling my lifebar. I simply enjoy the challenge of looking for each piece, whether that involves finding some kind of secret passage, solving a tough puzzle, or finishing a sidequest. The prize of extending my lifebar isn't very interesting to me. I see HCPs as a way to add more to the game, and if the gameplay is fun, I'll happily take more. I would do the sidequest even if there were no prize at the end, just for the intrinsic value of playing.

I think the problem with HCPs and other collectables that are limited (skulltula tokens, poe spirits, etc.) is that they are boring. There is no immediate reward in most cases, and when there is, it's something that's expected and incremental, rather than new. It doesn't really allow new possibilities in most cases, and is generally much more trouble than it's worth. In most recent Zelda games, for instance, getting all the HCPs is usually much more difficult than simply beating the game without searching for them.

I would suggest making Heart Containers very rare, to the point where you're not going to have many pieces in the game. Don't give them out for free after each boss - they shouldn't be an expected reward, but rather an occasional surprise. Even give the player incentive to skip heart containers by allowing access to bonus challenges to players who have low maximum health. I think it's a bit backward to reward the good players with even more health. The good players should be pushed and challenged further. Of course, not every game needs to be like this, but I would find this kind of game far more interesting than the standard hide-HCPs-throughout-the-world gameplay.

[Radien]

Hm.. I enjoy looking for HCPs, but not for the obvious reason of filling my lifebar. I simply enjoy the challenge of looking for each piece, whether that involves finding some kind of secret passage, solving a tough puzzle, or finishing a sidequest. The prize of extending my lifebar isn't very interesting to me. I see HCPs as a way to add more to the game, and if the gameplay is fun, I'll happily take more. I would do the sidequest even if there were no prize at the end, just for the intrinsic value of playing.

Well, yeah, but that's because you're riding on, like you said, the intrinsic rewards of exploration and completing challenges. While it's true that rewards in video games are intangible - and to some extent, just an illusion - that's no reason at all not to have them. At the very least, structuring the challenges such that one challenge opens up another one is a great way to keep people motivated.

I think the problem with HCPs and other collectables that are limited (skulltula tokens, poe spirits, etc.) is that they are boring. There is no immediate reward in most cases, and when there is, it's something that's expected and incremental, rather than new. It doesn't really allow new possibilities in most cases, and is generally much more trouble than it's worth. In most recent Zelda games, for instance, getting all the HCPs is usually much more difficult than simply beating the game without searching for them.

Definitely 100% true. I just have a couple of things to add.

Yes, "Skulltula" style tokens and such are closer to the "intrinsic" side of rewards, because you only get a real reward at every 5th or 10th increment, at best. But they're a great way to keep the player going. Most games that successfully use tokens to reward the player end up reserving their best items as token-collection rewards... and no, OoT did not do it successfully.

Yes, I know Zelda Classic isn't designed for token rewards. But that doesn't mean it isn't possible. I intend to have them, and it won't even require scripting.

I would suggest making Heart Containers very rare, to the point where you're not going to have many pieces in the game. Don't give them out for free after each boss - they shouldn't be an expected reward, but rather an occasional surprise. Even give the player incentive to skip heart containers by allowing access to bonus challenges to players who have low maximum health. I think it's a bit backward to reward the good players with even more health. The good players should be pushed and challenged further. Of course, not every game needs to be like this, but I would find this kind of game far more interesting than the standard hide-HCPs-throughout-the-world gameplay.

So wait... you're suggesting no heart container reward at the end of a boss?

While I totally see your point, I don't think it's necessary to go that far. If your quest is Zelda-themed, people are going to expect a HC reward after each boss, because literally NO Zelda game has had a dungeon without a HC reward... well, except Zelda 2, but even that game gave you an auto-level-up as a reward, which is very nearly the same. Anyway, I think the presence of a HC at the end of each dungeon can be offset by ramping up the difficulty of each successive dungeon, slightly.

You definitely have a point about health being a silly reward for good players. It's like receiving a flame arrow as a reward for finishing an ice dungeon: you get it right after proving that you can survive without it. Really, instead of collecting heart pieces, I'd rather be assembling the pieces of an ancient badass sword that'll allow me to finish the game more quickly, rather than a life meter that'll further reduce the already-low likelihood that I'll die.

Heck, that's the same complaint that I have about Twilight Princess' Magic Armor. I really would rather have had a Biggoron's Sword.


Oh, and I have a slight peeve I want to bring up: "HCPs." This is a common term among the ZC community, but at what point did the Zelda series ever call them "Heart Container Pieces"? I only remember them using the term "Heart Piece" to refer to the items that give you 1/4th of a Heart Container (or *grimace* 1/5th in TP).

Similarly, a full Heart Container is not a "piece." Perhaps this confusion is linked to ZQuest's use of the phrase "life gauge pieces," in which the use of the word "piece" is more-or-less unrelated.



Incidentally, there's an idea I had, but until now have decided not to try. I'm curious what you all would think about it:

What if Heart Pieces really DID increase your heart gauge by 1/4th of a heart, immediately? That means that your life meter could, for instance, have a maximum life amount of 7 and 1/4 hearts. With life gauge pieces, you could totally do this. It wouldn't be that hard. Whaddaya think? Somebody really should try this.

[Fox]

Well, yeah, but that's because you're riding on, like you said, the intrinsic rewards of exploration and completing challenges. While it's true that rewards in video games are intangible - and to some extent, just an illusion - that's no reason at all not to have them. At the very least, structuring the challenges such that one challenge opens up another one is a great way to keep people motivated.

Oh, I agree. I'm just saying that they have more than zero worth, and depending on how much worth you put into intrinsic rewards, they can actually be worth a lot. Of course, you're betting a lot if you're betting on using only intrinsic worth - your gameplay has to hold up for long periods of time without getting boring or stale, you have to make each piece interesting to obtain (I'd argue this should be true anyway), and your audience should be okay with no real reward. The last one is difficult to control, and probably won't work for most people. It's better to have a real reward, but I understand that's not always possible for longer games. If you can't make a good reward, at least try to make the process of reaching the item fun and interesting.

Yes, "Skulltula" style tokens and such are closer to the "intrinsic" side of rewards, because you only get a real reward at every 5th or 10th increment, at best. But they're a great way to keep the player going. Most games that successfully use tokens to reward the player end up reserving their best items as token-collection rewards... and no, OoT did not do it successfully.

The process of hunting down each token is the part that's boring to many people, regardless of prize. That's what I'm focusing on - the journey rather than the destination. Although if you can make reaching each token interesting, this might be a different story. If OoT didn't do it correctly, how would you suggest it be done?

So wait... you're suggesting no heart container reward at the end of a boss?

While I totally see your point, I don't think it's necessary to go that far. If your quest is Zelda-themed, people are going to expect a HC reward after each boss, because literally NO Zelda game has had a dungeon without a HC reward... well, except Zelda 2, but even that game gave you an auto-level-up as a reward, which is very nearly the same. Anyway, I think the presence of a HC at the end of each dungeon can be offset by ramping up the difficulty of each successive dungeon, slightly.

Not for every quest, no. This is really me looking for a unique quest with unique ideas. Putting a heart container at the end of each boss fight decreases the value of heart containers you can find elsewhere. The more rare an event is, the more excited the player will be when finding it. This would probably work better for a non-Zelda-themed quest. I admit it's a radical idea that shouldn't be used for most quests, but don't dismiss it outright because it's different. I'm a believer that as a player makes it further into a game, it shouldn't get easier because of new stat-increasing power-ups, but because the player's skill is improving. That's not to say stat-improving power-ups shouldn't be included - just that they should be more rare and feel more like a huge reward.

Maybe I also just want to play with people's expectations a little. A problem with Zelda Classic is that things get a bit too familiar for veterans. Mixing up the formula a little can make things interesting. Another idea is to put the HCs at the end of each boss as usual, but giving incentive to not take it. Maybe the HC will increase the player's life, but it will also take life away from a friendly NPC. Thus, the player is given a choice - take the immediate reward of extending life now, or choose to let the NPC keep their health. Their actions then have a more emotional consequence. Near the end of the game, reward players who didn't take many HCs with a cool new tool, a better ending, or maybe even an entirely new bonus area that must be completed to find a secret "best" ending.

You definitely have a point about health being a silly reward for good players. It's like receiving a flame arrow as a reward for finishing an ice dungeon: you get it right after proving that you can survive without it. Really, instead of collecting heart pieces, I'd rather be assembling the pieces of an ancient badass sword that'll allow me to finish the game more quickly, rather than a life meter that'll further reduce the already-low likelihood that I'll die.

Heck, that's the same complaint that I have about Twilight Princess' Magic Armor. I really would rather have had a Biggoron's Sword.

Agreed, though neither the magic armor nor Biggeron's Sword did it for me. Too much work for too little reward.

Oh, and I have a slight peeve I want to bring up: "HCPs." This is a common term among the ZC community, but at what point did the Zelda series ever call them "Heart Container Pieces"? I only remember them using the term "Heart Piece" to refer to the items that give you 1/4th of a Heart Container (or *grimace* 1/5th in TP).

Similarly, a full Heart Container is not a "piece." Perhaps this confusion is linked to ZQuest's use of the phrase "life gauge pieces," in which the use of the word "piece" is more-or-less unrelated.

That's true, and admittedly I'm so used to calling them heart-container pieces that I assumed that's what they were called in the game. I think the acronym HCP is better than HP, though, since HP is a little more vague and has the meaning hit-points or health-points already attached. Even you have used HCP in this thread, so it can't be that big a peeve.

Incidentally, there's an idea I had, but until now have decided not to try. I'm curious what you all would think about it:

What if Heart Pieces really DID increase your heart gauge by 1/4th of a heart, immediately? That means that your life meter could, for instance, have a maximum life amount of 7 and 1/4 hearts. With life gauge pieces, you could totally do this. It wouldn't be that hard. Whaddaya think? Somebody really should try this.

The reason it's done the way it's done in current Zelda games is so that instead of constantly receiving tiny incremental updates that the player will hardly notice, they get occasional big updates and can be more excited. While I think your system could work, it would most likely feed even more into the problem we've been discussing: very little payoff for too much work. Still, it's something you could try. Put it in your quest for a little bit and see how it feels.

[DarkFlameWolf]

you know, I might just do that. No HCs received from beating any bosses, just Triforce or main quest story items. And rather find full HCs out on the field and in the caves. You have three to start off with, and 21 more HCs to find, making a full life meter of 24 hearts. I'd have to offset this of course by utilizing the enemy editor to scale the difficulty with the ease of play garnered from having a larger health meter and a few damage reducing rings equipped.

[Dawnlight]

Oh, my mistake.
I was sure it used heart containers for some reason, but now that I think about it I can picture the HCP graphic from it pretty well >_<

It's in Migokalle's THP.

Actually, there's one obtainable Full Heart Container in Minish Cap. The rest are obtained by beating bosses.

you know, I might just do that. No HCs received from beating any bosses, just Triforce or main quest story items. And rather find full HCs out on the field and in the caves. You have three to start off with, and 21 more HCs to find, making a full life meter of 24 hearts. I'd have to offset this of course by utilizing the enemy editor to scale the difficulty with the ease of play garnered from having a larger health meter and a few damage reducing rings equipped.

Kinda like Metroid Prime huh? That could be a great idea. That would make quests more non-linear.

Edited by Dawnlight, 29 April 2010 - 08:05 PM.

[Joe123]

Actually, there's one obtainable Full Heart Container in Minish Cap. The rest are obtained by beating bosses.

I thought there was!
It's in the map that the farm is on right? Just above the little bit of river? And you can't get it it till really near the end of the game or something?

[Alestance]

You can use HPCs, but I would suggest adding them to the health bar immediately.

Its a stupid suggestion, I know, but I think that having HPCs increase your life instantly would be a more rewarding twist, even if you have 3 and a quarter heart containers, or whatever.