54 replies to this topic

[Moosh]

It depends whether or not you are playing DI for the first time or not.  If its the first time then its more challenging than LoH simply because you don't know where everything is.  Plus there are new monsters to figure out and find out the weaknesses too.  There are also annoying secrets you must find out like the potion otherwise the first gleeok battle is impossible.  LoH is very straightforward, no new monsters, no secrets, its simply pure challenge - I intended it this way.

 

But once you've played DI and know what has changed and now to adapt to those changes then I think LoH is more difficult - but not by much.

Have you played Isle of Rebirth? I see it's not on your list while some other "challenging" quests are. Mostly just curious if some of the hero mode bosses would rustle your jimmies.

 

Also have you played the Fun in the Sun quests, specifically the second one? Probably not up to your difficulty standards, but I recall FitS2 being pretty hard.

[James24]

I have no plans to release LoH:IE to the database and I would ask that anyone I gave it to to respect that wish.  I know that to us challenge quest players LoH and LoH:IE might seem a paradise, but you've got to realize that the vast majority of the ZC fanbase doesn't agree with us.  Judging from what happened with LoH's release - a lot of people to get very upset with highly challenge quests especially when they don't make it anywhere. There's no reason why we can't enjoy the quest privately amoungst ourselves.  Besides, I'm not so sure that purezc or AGN would welcome hosting such a controversial quest if they know it could potentially cause such disruption to the peace that's enjoyed now.  You only have to look at the comments on the locked LoH:IE thread here or at AGN to see what I mean.

 

Lost Isle - I quit after having beaten the first fortress.  Can't remember if I zero gamed the first fortress or not, but its my standard policy.  I look at a quest and if its not challenging up front and I get bored then I quit.  Perhaps you can post some screenshots of what you consider are the challenging parts and if that whet's my appetite, I'll give it another try.

 

Isle of Rebirth - yeah I remember trying that one on hero mode.  Overworld was too large and I found the first dungeon after 30 minutes or so.  Then, the first dungeon seemed too easy because I could continually fill up my hearts by slashing pots.  So I gave up and quit.  If you can show me screenshots of what you think is challenging in that quest and I agree with that assessment then I'll by all means give it another shot.

 

I haven't played fun in the sun.

[Bill Nye the Russian Spy]

a lot of people to get very upset with highly challenge quests especially when they don't make it anywhere.

Seriously? I've never seen this - I'll have to look into it.

Regarding Isle of Rebirth: you were one dungeon away from the part where it starts to get tough. (The first dungeon isn't exactly anyone's favorite, anyway.) Emphasis on "starts," though - if you really want to see a challenge, go on YouTube (or the official help thread) and look up Medusa, Tartaros, or ???. There are two other notable bosses, one of whom is even harder than those three, but their identities are a bit of a spoiler (though pretty much everyone here probably already knows about the toughest one):

Spoiler

Venser (Prismatic Gate) and Lumen (Starlit Temple).

EDIT: Found the thread. Most, if not all, people weren't upset about the difficulty. I'll leave it at that.

Edited by Bill Nye the Russian Spy, 30 January 2016 - 03:16 AM.

[James24]

Ok I found those videos and had a look at them.  What I would say is that the bosses are hard simply because when you first play them you have absolutely no idea how they act and behave.  And you'll lose until you've played it enough times to predict their attacks and know how to defend yourself.  Its like Dungeon Impossible, when you play it the first time you don't know all the secrets or paths so you die many times until you've figured it out.  But once you figure everything out, its so much easier.

 

Compare this to LoH, AQ and LoH:IE where despite the fact you know where everything is and exactly how the enemies are going to act and behave, its still very hard even after multiple tries.  Take the signature room of LoH:IE - the 10 blue darknuts vs. a wooden sword + 7 hearts with no rings.  Not going to be become easier no matter how many times you play it.  To this day, it still takes me on average 10-15 tries to clear that room.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=-Yag-qpsj80

 

And as for the thread, I don't agree with you.  The underlying cause of the arguments was the difficulty and if I had bowed to requests to make the quest easier I probably wouldn't have got as many complaints as I did.  Lets not dig further into this.

[Bill Nye the Russian Spy]

Alright, yeah, what you said about IoR applies to most of the bosses (even Evan admits this), but not the first spoiler one or ???. (Tartaros is debatable.) Have you looked at those? In any case, I'm still playing through LoH, and no, it's not still a nightmare when one has a rhythm down. Challenging, yes, but no worse than certain parts of IoR. (I haven't reached the Darknut room yet - not a lot of time for ZC at the moment - but Darknuts aren't nearly as bad as they seem once you know the trick mentioned in the first dungeon.)

[James24]

LoH - yeah there's a learning curve involved and it gets easier once that learning curve has been mastered - just like in IOR and DI.  Someone did make a very convincing argument to me that knowing where everything is is a big advantage and so I tried my best to fix that in LoH:IE with radios and encouraging the player to view the quest file.  What my aim is to have the quest still be challenging even when you know how everything works and I think LoH:IE does that.

 

There's no really hard darknut room in LoH - it only exists in LoH:IE.  Point you should note if you're playing LoH.  If you play it with the current version of ZC there are bugs in it.  It should be played with ZC2.5 Beta 20 which was released on July 1, 2011.  Otherwise you aren't playing it how i tested, balanced and intended it to be played.

[Bill Nye the Russian Spy]

Good to know. What kinds of bugs?
Also, I saw the Darknut room on YouTube. I get the feeling that that video doesn't do it justice, though - I'll have to see for myself once I'm through the "prerequisites".

[Deedee]

Lost Isle - I quit after having beaten the first fortress.  Can't remember if I zero gamed the first fortress or not, but its my standard policy.  I look at a quest and if its not challenging up front and I get bored then I quit.  Perhaps you can post some screenshots of what you consider are the challenging parts and if that whet's my appetite, I'll give it another try.

 

Isle of Rebirth - yeah I remember trying that one on hero mode.  Overworld was too large and I found the first dungeon after 30 minutes or so.  Then, the first dungeon seemed too easy because I could continually fill up my hearts by slashing pots.  So I gave up and quit.  If you can show me screenshots of what you think is challenging in that quest and I agree with that assessment then I'll by all means give it another shot.

 

Isle of Rebirth: The two hardest bosses in the game IMO are Tartaros and ???. Both require you to complete an incredibly challenging part of the quest to access them. ??? is protected by the boss rush and the fact that you need every single heart container in the game to fight him, while Tartaros is protected by a brutal bonus dungeon unlocked by collecting 20 cursed skulls. Said brutal bonus dungeon I would consider to be even harder than most if not all of the dungeons in LOH:IE, which is saying something.

Tartaros (NJF's LP): https://www.youtube....h?v=HSLjZS2AccA

 

??? (NJF's LP): https://www.youtube....h?v=rhy4DmJY3zU

Lost Isle: I did a Let's Play of the quest, if you want to see how challenging any part of the quest is.

Part 1: https://www.youtube....h?v=TJrKb0yCH18

Part 2: https://www.youtube....h?v=qp3q59f7vxE

Part 3: https://www.youtube....h?v=0RSRPiMXYkc

I haven't gotten around to uploading the other parts yet, but I will soon. 

[Bill Nye the Russian Spy]

Wait, the Blighted Abyss was harder than most of LoH:IE?

...Well, in that case, I'm probably all set already. Send it my way! (Probably won't start it until I'm done with the original, though.)

Edited by Bill Nye the Russian Spy, 31 January 2016 - 10:06 PM.

[Deedee]

Wait, the Blighted Abyss was harder than most of LoH:IE?

...Well, in that case, I'm probably all set already. Send it my way! (Probably won't start it until I'm done with the original, though.)

Actually, now that I think about it, Blighted Abyss is harder than the first 4 levels of LOH:IE. The latter parts of IE might be harder then it, though.

Tartaros and ???, on the other hand...

[Bill Nye the Russian Spy]

Ah. Still, I'm up for it - the entire reason I got into ZC was Tartaros' reputation, which should say something about my tastes.

Edited by Bill Nye the Russian Spy, 31 January 2016 - 10:56 PM.

[James24]

Dimentio, have you actually completed LoH:IE without modifying the quest file - or is your experience of LoH:IE based on Yloh's videos?  I thought you said to me that you were sure if you could beat LoH:IE.  I appreciate the videos and such but the thing is that if I need to spend 15-20+ hours playing a game which I don't really enjoy just to get to one single challenging part then its probably not worth it for me.  Quests that I like to play are challenging straight from the start and the quests I know to be challenging certainly don't disappoint in that respect.

 

By the way, I've found another challenging quest that you guys might like.  Called "glenn the great" - and I can assure you its challenging and challenging from the outset - but gets a bit easier towards the end.  Look for it on AGN's database:

 

http://www.armageddo...quest.php?q=516

 

Bill, I know for sure that LoH is bugged on the latest version of ZC because the "door repair guys" leave the dungeon once they take your cash, but they should always be taking your cash.  Can still be played but its way too easy if the robbers don't take your money.

[Yloh]

Hardest to Complete: LoH:IE v1.2 ... no questions. 

 

In terms of puzzles: Isle of Rebirth is probably the most difficult to figure out.

 

Level Design: Isle of Rebirth and Lost Isle have the most difficult to figure out dungeons. 

 

Scripted Bosses: Isle of Rebirth has the most difficult scripted bosses to date. 

 

2.10 Style Bosses: To The Top had some challenging 2.10 style bosses. 

 

Other than hardest to complete, the other categories can be debated.

[TheLegend_njf]

When somebody quits Isle of Rebirth because it's "too easy", you'd have no other choice but to believe them when they say "I have a unique taste". 

 

All jokes aside, generally I find people who has a taste for challenge that's difficult to achieve usually attracts themselves to PvP and online battles. They are the type of people who like fighting games for this reason.

 

James comes across as the type of person who look at games most people call Legendary and say "They aren't even hard", these games include games like Ninja Gaiden and Battletoads. While I feel that these games aren't particularly hard while you get used to them, I still do acknowledge their difficulty in the learning process. Once these games are figured out, they really aren't that hard. So what do you call hard? There can be subjective to objective answers to this

 

It's true what you say, most of Isle of Rebirth's bosses can essentially be figured out and defeated easily because Evan still bases his challenge around "fairness", I try to approach this same level of design. Some of his end game bosses are an exception though since it took me hours to defeat some of them. 

 

However, some people need more, even if fairness is sacrificed in the process. They don't mind things being a little "unfair" as long as it continues to amp up the challenge. 

 

The people I am referring to are the type of people who's played games like Dark Souls and beat it and say "Yeah, that's okay" but now spends their days battling PvP battles in Dark Souls seeking out the hardest battles with online people.

 

Fighting games in my opinion is the hardest thing known to man, especially games like Street Fighter over games like Mortal Kombat. As good as I am at games, I've already held up the white flag to online gaming since I can admit PvP battles really show me how much I suck. lol

 

If you're finding games too easy, I suggest finding a genre you like, and go against people online in games like Street Fighter maybe. Perhaps, an even better idea, find a way to get involved with speed running tournaments and stuff. 

 

In fact, back to Isle of Rebirth, I would be interested in seeing an Isle of Rebirth speed run. lol

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 01 February 2016 - 02:33 PM.

[Bill Nye the Russian Spy]

^All of this. IMO, the moment a hypothetical perfect player who knows how everything works can be killed by bad luck alone is the moment the game/quest stops being enjoyable, but I know not everyone agrees - I, too, point these people toward PvP metagaming and speedruns, which don't have a maximum difficulty.

Edited by Bill Nye the Russian Spy, 01 February 2016 - 02:22 PM.