28 replies to this topic

[sigtau]

Windows 8's interface is based on that of Windows Phone 7. That said, if I were held down against my will and forced to use that interface on my phone for the rest of my life, I wouldn't complain, because the interface is incredibly intuitive and fun to use on a touchscreen.

But with a mouse and keyboard? I'd rather have my normal Windows desktop. If I want gimmicky interface tweaks, my MacBook Pro/OS X has those (touchpad gestures!), and it executes them in ways that are lightyears ahead of anything Windows 8 produces.

I think it should be noted that the Windows desktop in Windows 8 is intact, it's just included as a separate app--and there's no Start menu, obviously. That said (and not trying to fearmonger or anything), it seems that any program running in this "desktop" app has been given the title 'legacy application' meaning that Microsoft is about to deprecate (stop supporting) the use of such programs.

Eventually, this could mean that Windows 8 could be the start of an absolute disaster for the PC platform. I'm not assuming anything, though, so we'll just have to wait and see.

[Moosh]

But with a mouse and keyboard? I'd rather have my normal Windows desktop. If I want gimmicky interface tweaks, my MacBook Pro/OS X has those (touchpad gestures!), and it executes them in ways that are lightyears ahead of anything Windows 8 produces.

That's odd. My mac has a lot less touchpad gestures than my PC. That said I've noticed the PC's touchpad is a lot less integrated than the mac's...

Yeah seriously. Please keep the tablet interface for the tablets. I'll just stick to XP for now unless I find a way to snatch and multiboot W7.

Even a guy who duels a plumber in an arena made of pipes over a pool of lava and whose battle stategy involves hiding in said pipes realizes that Windows 8 is a terrible idea.

Edited by Moosh, 26 October 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Ventus]

Even a guy who duels a plumber in an arena made of pipes over a pool of lava and whose battle stategy involves hiding in said pipes realizes that Windows 8 is a terrible idea.

Well I used to have that same idea that it was a terrible idea. But after messing around with enough. I like Windows 8. Its better then Windows 7 (Really it is better. It does not suck.)
The start screen was awkward at first but after awhile it done whats it was supposed to do. Its pretty good so far.

I haven't bought one yet I don't have any money. That really bums me the hell out.

[LinktheMaster]

But with a mouse and keyboard? I'd rather have my normal Windows desktop.

Weird. I could have sworn Windows 8 had that. Oh wait, it’s right here.

I think it should be noted that the Windows desktop in Windows 8 is intact, it's just included as a separate app--and there's no Start menu, obviously.

No start menu? That’s so bizarre. I could have sworn that was right here. Huh. Guess I was wrong.

I’m sorry, but your post is filled with really, really common stupid misconceptions about Windows 8. People love to act like Windows 8 completely trashes everything about Windows 7 and prior Windows operating systems. It doesn’t. Sure, you can stay in the “Metro UI”*, but no one is stopping you. And if you actually give the operating system a chance, you’ll find out that if you want to, you can pretty much use Windows 8 just like Windows 7.

I mean, I don’t know about you, but I don’t live in my start menu. In fact, I very rarely open it up. When I do, I almost always search for what I want to open. You can do the exact same thing here! For power users that want to use the traditional desktop, the Metro UI is nothing more than an advanced start menu. That’s it. And I just cannot fathom how people are completely incapable of grasping that.

That’s not to say Windows 8 is perfect for using with a mouse and keyboard. It’s obviously not. The Metro interface is a bit clunky with them (though not nearly as bad as people try to make it out to be), but again, there’s basically nothing forcing you to use it that way.

Microsoft isn’t as dumb as you and other people make themselves out to be. I’ll admit that they have made some poor choices, but you’re acting like Microsoft completely upending the table and trashing everything they’ve had for years, and that’s just simply not the case. If you truly think that Microsoft will completely trash the traditional desktop, even in Windows 9, then that’s a bit silly. Microsoft can’t do this for business users. It’s just not going to happen.

Your point about Microsoft probably dropping support for old applications is sort of valid, I guess. There is a possibility that Microsoft might start dropping “legacy application” support in Windows 9, which sucks… but can you blame them? At this point support for legacy application really hurts Windows in that Microsoft can’t do things like get rid of the registry or redo the file system. It’s just not viable. And if you want to get mad at Microsoft for not supporting applications (remember than Windows 7 still works with lots of applications that are over 10 years old and still makes their applications support operating systems that are over 6 years old), then you seriously need to look at other companies. Apple is awful when it comes to backward compatibility. Again, this all sucks, but it happens.

Still, that’s under the assumption that Microsoft will actually drop legacy application support in Win9. I sort of doubt that it will, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they drop 32bit support.

Basically, change happens, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a disaster. It just means you have to adapt and give it a (non-biased) chance.

*I know this is not called the Metro UI anymore.

[Saffith]

I mean, I don’t know about you, but I don’t live in my start menu. In fact, I very rarely open it up. When I do, I almost always search for what I want to open. You can do the exact same thing here!

I suppose that's a major factor that in whether one likes Win 8 or not. I use the start menu all the time, almost always with the keyboard alone, and I've never liked searching from the menu. Nothing about the start screen works the way I'm used to. I'm sure I'll acclimate eventually, but I don't see that it will actually be an improvement in any way.

At this point support for legacy application really hurts Windows in that Microsoft can’t do things like get rid of the registry or redo the file system. It’s just not viable.

Maybe someone'll make a Windows port of Wine.

[sigtau]

I've got homework to do, so I don't feel like addressing things point-by-point. I'll keep it short.

Before I say anything, I have to ask--why did you call me out on saying there's no desktop, and then immediately quote me saying that the original desktop is intact? Redundancy much?

Getting back on topic: please understand what I meant by "there's no start menu." I'm well aware of what the don't-call-it-Metro interface does, how it replaces the old system, etc. The fact that they've done away with the menu system altogether (notice how everything Microsoft-manufactured nowadays uses that Ribbon interface, and again, the whole Metro thing) is what I'm talking about. I can't tell you the countless number of times I've wasted time on an assignment trying to find functionality in Microsoft motherfucking Office just because they re-arranged things into the Ribbon layout, and in my experience, the extra clicking and keystrokes involved with running a Find operation in the Start Screen, or the countless number of tiles assigned to your "legacy applications" in the Start Screen have the exact same problem: It's not necessarily unintuitive, it just feels like a very ham-fisted approach at breaking out of the same old UI paradigms Microsoft has been applying since the early 90's.

That said, I know there's a reason they're doing this, and it's not as stupid as I may have set out to initially portray in my first post here.

The problem with Windows is that Microsoft has, over the years, worked itself into a corner. Things such as the aforementioned, like the registry, the antiquated filesystem, the generally old menubar system of organization, that damn print spooler that doesn't cancel print jobs immediately when you tell it to, and so on--are all things that software developers have grown used to, and as a result, everything is built on this old, antiquated way of doing things. Microsoft wants to change this, because their outdated system means that their way of doing business is also, consequently, going out of date. So, Windows 8 gets released. Unfortunately, this is going to kick a massive hole in the PC market, because of our reliance on this antiquated system. Whether it's our fault for relying on it or Microsoft's fault for accommodating it since 1991, we may never know.

[LinktheMaster]

I suppose that's a major factor that in whether one likes Win 8 or not. I use the start menu all the time, almost always with the keyboard alone, and I've never liked searching from the menu. Nothing about the start screen works the way I'm used to. I'm sure I'll acclimate eventually, but I don't see that it will actually be an improvement in any way.

Well, that's understandable. And I know some people do use the start menu a lot. I just think most of those people will be okay staying in the Metro-UI.

Before I say anything, I have to ask--why did you call me out on saying there's no desktop, and then immediately quote me saying that the original desktop is intact? Redundancy much?

Well, otherwise I couldn't mention that depending on how you use Win8, the Metro-UI is the start menu. I realized what I was saying was redundant, but it was for effect.

Getting back on topic: please understand what I meant by "there's no start menu." I'm well aware of what the don't-call-it-Metro interface does, how it replaces the old system, etc. The fact that they've done away with the menu system altogether (notice how everything Microsoft-manufactured nowadays uses that Ribbon interface, and again, the whole Metro thing) is what I'm talking about. I can't tell you the countless number of times I've wasted time on an assignment trying to find functionality in Microsoft motherfucking Office just because they re-arranged things into the Ribbon layout, and in my experience, the extra clicking and keystrokes involved with running a Find operation in the Start Screen, or the countless number of tiles assigned to your "legacy applications" in the Start Screen have the exact same problem: It's not necessarily unintuitive, it just feels like a very ham-fisted approach at breaking out of the same old UI paradigms Microsoft has been applying since the early 90's.

Sorry if I seemed agitated. I've just seen similar comments to yours on places like Reddit, and I know a lot of those people either just have seen screenshots or tried out Win8 going in with the mindset of "this looks stupid." When you try something out with the first impression that it's stupid, then you're going to naturally continue to think it's stupid.

The one thing I want to say to your comment about the Ribbon layout is that's a great example of stubbornness to attempt to adapt creating a bad user experience - but Microsoft isn't really to blame for that. Despite what you may think, the Ribbon interface pretty much is better almost all around than the old, crappy menu-based system that Office 2003 and before used. Lots of more things that people frequently used re now available under the ribbon in oftentimes much fewer clicks, and things are a lot better presented rather than the vomit of icons on several rows of toolbars that Office 2003 and before contained. However, if you don't make an attempt to get off the old system and learn the new system, then you're gonna have a bad time.

Of course, oftentimes people use the argument "if it takes you a long time to learn it, then it's not intuitive," which is a completely stupid idea. In complex applications like Word (or Windows itself), things are going to take a bit of time to get used to. Nothing is going to just come to people naturally. The only reason you like Word 2003 and before is because you spent years using it. That doesn't necessarily means that it was designed better. It's just what you were accustomed to. And you can't fault Microsoft for switching to a better system and you not taking the time to learn it.

Now, I won't fully compare the Ribbon interface change to the Metro-UI changes. I won't argue that Metro is better - it's just different. I think in some ways it is better, but I'll admit that in some ways it's worse. It's a bit of a trade off. But just because it's different doesn't mean it's Microsoft trying to force something crappy on people just to break precedent.

[Ventus]

Well I'll be getting My windows 8 in about a week or two. got to work up some money..

But in the mean time my friend gave me a Windows server 2012.
Its supposed to have the metro interface. and He Said I convert it into a workstation to use as a normal Desktop OS.
Well time to give a 64 bit system a go

[Ben]

Two Ars technica reviews are out; they basically both state that while Windows 8 is nice on a tablet, the Metro UI parts are not much fun on a desktop; the much-touted performance increase is actually just UI responsiveness being somewhat improved -- benchmarks show gaming and general performance is the same as Windows 7 x64. (Boot time is supposed to be better, but still takes a while when you don't have an SSD, of course.) They tested Windows 8 on four machines ranging from a machine with netbook specs to a fairly high-end gaming rig, and a couple in between, and consistently found results that were more or less the same as in Windows 7 x64.

Their general verdict is that unless you really need the under-the-hood upgrades, there's no compelling reason to install Windows 8 on an existing machine right now. The comments are full of people who say they are waiting either a few months to put it on their home machines, and corporate users who either just deployed Windows 7 or are waiting for a Windows 8 service pack, or some more enterprise-friendly way to duplicate the Start menu's old functionality.

[Ventus]

Yeah... I won't be getting a Windows 8 for awhile. the store I shop at is out of them...
But my dad said he'll buy me one for Christmas *sighs* So far away.... damn.

[Nicholas Steel]

Just pointing this out: You can get Windows 8 Pro Upgrade for $40 via http://windows.micro...-US/windows/buy

Just change the en-US part of the URL to match your country to see if the deal is available for you. So for example Australia would use this URL: http://windows.micro...-AU/windows/buy

Edited by franpa, 28 October 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[Ventus]

Wish I could franpa. But again, I don't own a credit card like everyone else.

[LinktheMaster]

I think I'm going to upgrade my desktop once I get back from being in Georgia for a week. I've been needing to reformat my desktop for a while, so this should be a good opportunity.

[Ventus]

Well my dad bought me a early Christmas gift . I got Windows 8 pro!. I just installed it and everything is working great. And so far I'm loving the start screen! <3