59 replies to this topic

[Mani Kanina]

Well, you're free to disagree I suppose, I stated my reasons for why I think undertales different paths are actually very different, but if you don't place much weight on those things than that's on you, I don't agree with ya though.

Dodging is already a part of Zelda games though, you'd just opt to not kill things. How exactly is this fundamentally different gameplay? Speedruns of zelda games already avoid killing enemies unless it's needed, since it's slow. Like, saying that playing LoZ without attacking enemies makes for a fundamental different experience rings rather hallow if you ask me.

[Evan20000]

I still have the endings, the opening, the superboss event recognition, the superboss reward, the collectable sidequest reward event and a few other small things to do.

[C-Dawg]

Sounds like a another two month's of work at least.  That's cool, I'm patient, but I'm definitely in line to check this out once it's done.

 

 

Dodging is already a part of Zelda games though, you'd just opt to not kill things. How exactly is this fundamentally different gameplay? Speedruns of zelda games already avoid killing enemies unless it's needed, since it's slow. Like, saying that playing LoZ without attacking enemies makes for a fundamental different experience rings rather hallow if you ask me.

 

From my perspective, the fact that speed runners path the game differently from normal players already shows it's not a hollow difference.  A fundamental question about how a game plays is how the player paths around each obstacle and what tools they have to employ.  Having to dodge things and snake through moving objects is a different kind of challenge than stabbing and killing things.  I was just watching a speed run of Castlevania 3 last night, actually, and I was again struck at how he was actually playing a totally different game than I would even though it's the same cart.  Where a normal player would be focused on how to destroy each enemy based on it's attack pattern, he was pathing out how to time the room precisely so he could snake past them without bothering.   

 

Isn't that a much bigger difference in gameplay experience than whether or not you get to go into Dr. Triceratorp's secret lab or fighting a different final boss?

Edited by C-Dawg, 23 February 2016 - 02:22 PM.

[Dark Ice Dragon]

i love, optional, super boss, and if they are more powerfull of the final boss for me is even better, but the reward must be good! in some games i defeat tremendus monsters,demons and gods just for get a "congratulation",an accessory or a hidden character that was not so great after all...so think even to a super reward for who will beat your super boss.

[Deedee]

Superboss? Why not go further? Ultra boss?

[TheLegend_njf]

 

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

 

 

I dunno...

 

You don't seem that certain.

 

Can't wait to see the hard-mode exclusive content. lol

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 24 February 2016 - 06:37 PM.

[James24]

The problem with allowing players who like easy mode to access difficult content -optional or otherwise- is their reaction if they are unable to muster the skills to beat it and this is compounded if everything is already nerfed for them.  From my experience with challenge quests, this reaction tends to be...well...unsettling.  And so, there is a good case for difficult content not to be made available to them.

 

Its like that old "if you had cancer argument".  Lets say that you are terminally ill with cancer but didn't know about it.  Would you rather live out the rest of your life in blissful ignorance and then one day *boom*?  Or would you rather be told so that you can prepare your final days for the inevitable outcome?  I'd say the answer to this would depend on the individual concerned and how mentally strong they are to accept such news - it would not go down well with everyone.

[Shane]

The problem with allowing players who like easy mode to access difficult content -optional or otherwise- is their reaction if they are unable to muster the skills to beat it and this is compounded if everything is already nerfed for them.  From my experience with challenge quests, this reaction tends to be...well...unsettling.  And so, there is a good case for difficult content not to be made available to them.

Um, just so you know, optional content that you can avoid, especially if it's designed to be a secret cannot be compared to the entirety a "challenge quest". That's basic common sense.

 

Let's look at it this way: Has the optional challenge dungeon in Isle of Rebirth received a noticeable and negative backlash for being too challenging from the majority of users here? If not, then it's most likely because people know, based on common sense, it's optional content and very challenging, and thus they will avoid it at all costs and just enjoy the main quest for what it is. It's not the same as a full "challenge quest" because it's mandatory and you have to review it. Optional content can be reviewed optionally and your thoughts on it will be minor since it's not the full quest anyway.

 

In any case, Evan has stated his thoughts about locked content, let's just let him decide.

[Nimono]

Seems like an extreme position to me.  I propose that game should be well enough designed that at least a good portion of the people are motivated to play better and learn to master the game by the promise of getting whatever content it is that is "locked" behind difficult segments.  What's wrong with that?

At the same time, it's going to be frustrating to people if they can't see all of the game for not playing on a higher difficulty. It doesn't matter if it's "optional" content- it's still content that exists in the game, and after you beat the game once, you're going to want to see the rest of that content, not replay the game from scratch on a higher difficulty just for the sake of seeing that content. Even though it's optional, it's still content. Content that is necessary for "100%", you can't skip it. How are people who play on Easy going to feel? I don't think they'd be motivated to get better so much as motivated to never play on Easy at all, feeling they need to not "git gud", but "be gud from the start", which may ultimately turn them away. A stigma has been attached to it- "you are not good enough for all the content!!" So what reason does anyone have to ever play it? At that point, the difficulty level might as well not exist. I say, let people play the game how they want. So what if they're not as skilled as the people who play on Hard without ever dying? I don't believe they "deserve" to have an entire boss (and possibly dungeon) locked away from them.

 

As a counter-argument, I cite Metroid: Zero Mission (and JP Metroid Fusion). They have 3 difficulty levels: Easy, Normal, and Hard (the latter must be unlocked by clearing Normal once). The only difference between these levels is how much damage you take from enemies, what enemies appear where, and between Easy/Normal and Hard, how many resources each Tank gives you. There's no extra content, no missing bosses, nothing of the sort. And yet, it can still motivate you to get better and learn to master the game. How?

 

It locks sexy pics of Samus instead.

 

That's always been your reward from the start- the better you play the game, the more of Samus you see outside her Power Suit. Just pictures. Or, for the speedrunners, the time and percentage are all they need to be motivated to keep trying.

[Deedee]

It locks sexy pics of Samus instead.

 

That's always been your reward from the start- the better you play the game, the more of Samus you see outside her Power Suit. Just pictures. Or, for the speedrunners, the time and percentage are all they need to be motivated to keep trying.

 

Oh god no.

I don't care how sexy those pictures are, the entire thing is shameless fanservice that needs to stop, or else we'll be getting more Other M.

 

 

 

Anyways, I believe that as long as you place a nice warning label in front of the dungeon, and have the dungeon be completely unnerfed (like Blighted Abyss), then you're good to go. Easy players can decide if they want to try and tackle it, and might find the unnerfed difficulty too much for then, which acts like a gate. Sure, they can pass it, but are the good enough to pass it? It's no longer a quest of whether you chose easy or not, it's a real genuine question of "Are you good enough to beat this dungeon when you played the entire rest of the game in an easy difficulty?"

For anybody who tries to argue with "it'snot fair to have the dungeon be too hard for easy players", well, really? Now you're stating that the dungeon should be a walk in the park to everybody. It's optional content that's hard, and you can ignore it. Don't be that guy who rated Armageddon Quest 0 stars for "being too hard" when it clearly stated that it was a hard quest.

 

 

Oh, right, we were talking about bonus bosses. Well, I laugh at the difficulty of your boss Evan, for I can take anything you throw at me! 

No, but back to what I was saying, you should have the boss ignore all difficulties besides normal and Hero. Have him act like normal difficulty except when playing on hero,like you did with Stan. Or make the nerf for lower players not as easy as half damage.

Edited by Dimentio, 25 February 2016 - 01:09 PM.

[C-Dawg]

Yeah... there's a category of game designer who does use access female character's body as a prize for the presumed adolescent male audience.  Regardless of your feelings about that generally, it's at least super lazy.  It's not a very creative way to incentive players.  

 

Putting actual content behind challenges is, to me, part of what games are all about.  I'm particularly interested in having that content be created by or a result of things the player did to reach and overcome the bigger challenges they face.  Did you make choices that gave the Big Bad the AMAZING ANCIENT ARTIFACT OF DOOM instead of keeping it away?  Then it's a harder game and the content shifts to accommodate.  Perhaps Big Bad does things to the other characters and changes the story as a result.  That kind of thing.

[Air Luigi]

Oh, yes! New quest by Evan! How close are you to finish it? How long is this quest? Are there good exploration in the quest?

[Russ]

While I'm not Evan, I can answer most of the questions. The quest took me around eight and a half hours to complete, meeting all requirements for the best ending. However, mine wasn't a blind playthrough (I'd seen some areas and bosses before), and also didn't include all of the final dungeon, since it wasn't finished when beta testing started. I'd say the quest is pretty good with exploration. It's not quite an open world quest, since there's definitely a set progression, but there are certainly Metroidvania elements at play (lots of places to explore, optional boss fights, all heart containers obtained by finding them in the world instead of from beating dungeons, etc). As far as finishing it goes, I believe the only things left to do are finish up some optional areas in the final dungeon, create the opening and ending cutscenes, implement the difficulty settings, and do a final round of testing and tweaking stuff. That said, Evan's been busy recently and kinda been working on it whenever a burst of inspiration hits, so no telling when it'll actually be done.

... I swear I'm not trying to be Evan's PR guy, it just kinda happens.

[Air Luigi]

Thank you, it sounds really good. I can't wait for it! 

[Soma C.]

Psyched for the quest, and on the subject of the superboss...everyone's input sounds great, and I all I can say is that ZC doesn't seem to have enough good superbosses (or superbosses at all, for that matter...the only three that immediately come to mind for me are IoR's Stan and ???, Moosh's RedMageAdamWasWrong Toohoo fight and NJF's Dark Link in the Temple of Cole, though is the latter even considered a superboss?)...so whatever is decided is fine with me!  Optional stuff is always a good thing, especially if it's hidden enough so that you have to do some exploring to find them!  If and when I ever make a quest, I want my best one to have a secret, optional superdungeon complete with superboss that takes a bit of getting to/finding/fighting.  Excited for this project either way!  (y)