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Gauging Interest in Superbosses


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#31 Timelord

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 06:02 AM

I'm in the process of making the secret superboss fight for this quest. However, the reason I'm making this thread is to gather feedback from people who tend to like easier quests or lower difficulty settings. Do these sort of optional bosses appeal to you at all? I'm mostly trying to figure out if it's worth the effort giving the boss slightly different behavior for lower difficulties, but this would require a lot of coding so if the interest isn't there, I'm not going to bother.

EDIT: I want input from everyone. I didn't mean to imply I was just looking for certain people's.


I like the idea of secret bosses; and I also particularly favour them to be based on the overall quest difficulty settings.

Edited by ZoriaRPG, 23 February 2016 - 06:03 AM.


#32 TheLegend_njf

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 09:33 AM

Why do you think it's a good idea to block easy mode players from content they would enjoy by putting content they wouldn't enjoy in their way?
 
I tend to play on easier modes myself. I enjoy seeing the whole game, with all the bosses and attacks, without the frustration of constantly dying. I like moving on to see new areas, cool new enemies with neat attacks without dying hundreds of times. Isn't it better for more players to be able to enjoy the game?
 
It does get tricky when talking about stuff like attack patterns, though. I feel like seeing the boss's full array of powerful attacks is something casual players would want. It's a presentation thing that I know I personally appreciate. But it also makes sense to nerf it a bit so that it's fun to experience but not frustrating or out of line with the rest of the quest. It's a tricky balancing act, and it's difficult to satisfy everyone.


I see no harm in having content exclusive only to harder difficulties. It's optional content afterall.

It would be different if I decided to make somebody go through a quest and reach a message "You must beat the game on hard to see the final level". Could you imagine how pissed people would get? Haha!

#33 Moosh

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 11:51 AM

I see no harm in having content exclusive only to harder difficulties. It's optional content afterall.

It would be different if I decided to make somebody go through a quest and reach a message "You must beat the game on hard to see the final level". Could you imagine how pissed people would get? Haha!

Well for some of us, the final level/end goal of a game is exploration itself. I like being able to see everything a game has to offer and if there was somehow a difficulty mode that was too challenging for me and content was locked behind it, I'd be rather frustrated. Reasonably so I think. When it comes to difficulty locking, I think boss/enemy AI is okay to change, new attacks are sometimes acceptable, and entire dungeons or areas...no thanks.


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#34 Shane

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 11:55 AM

I guess I should throw in my proper two cents on the current subject.
 
To be perfectly honest if not blunt, locking content from easy mode players sounds distasteful regardless if it is bonus content or not. It sends several messages to me such as "why even bother playing easy mode if you don't get the full thing?", "is the creator treating me like I don't deserve the full thing?", etc. It makes easy mode sound unappealing and shameful to play on, so why even go through the effort of creating it? I opt easy mode simply because I don't have much time nowadays due to school work and I prefer being observent of design choices since I only usually do one playthrough unless something compels me to do another. But despite selecting easy mode, I still want to enjoy the full thing like the next player.
 
If a bonus superboss is too hard for easy mode players, let them decide for themselves if they should avoid it. It's optional after all, so chances are they will stop right then and there and call it a day and move on. If people complain about it, just tell them it's optional and it doesn't really effect the main quest. At the very least, they got a quick taste of the bonus content and aren't required to go above and beyond their comfort zone that is easy mode, or are required to go through that extra effort and time that people can't afford. Locking it up with the assumption that every single easy mode player can't handle or don't deserve a challenge is simply not the way to think.
 
This is why I don't like how most secondary modes in official titles are unlocked until after beating the standard version. But usually, you aren't missing out on much regarding Second Quest/Master Quest/Hero Mode, just a slight more challenge and small trivial things. Nothing like a superboss or anything of that nature though.

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#35 C-Dawg

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:00 PM

 

To be perfectly honest if not blunt, locking content from easy mode players sounds distasteful regardless if it is bonus content or not. It sends several messages to me such as "why even bother playing easy mode if you don't get the full thing?", "is the creator treating me like I don't deserve the full thing?", etc. It makes easy mode sound unappealing and shameful to play on, so why even go through the effort of creating it?

 

 

Seems like an extreme position to me.  I propose that game should be well enough designed that at least a good portion of the people are motivated to play better and learn to master the game by the promise of getting whatever content it is that is "locked" behind difficult segments.  What's wrong with that?  

 

And remember, there's always Let's Plays for the casuals who don't want to get good at the game but still want to see it the final content.  

 

 

Well for some of us, the final level/end goal of a game is exploration itself. I like being able to see everything a game has to offer and if there was somehow a difficulty mode that was too challenging for me and content was locked behind it, I'd be rather frustrated. Reasonably so I think. When it comes to difficulty locking, I think boss/enemy AI is okay to change, new attacks are sometimes acceptable, and entire dungeons or areas...no thanks.

 

 

Hmm, but what if a game is built to play very differently depending on how you want to go through it?

 

I'm going to get on my soap box for a minute here.  Undertale did one thing very, very right - it made the world react to the player's choices in a logical way, questioning the stale mechanics of the RPG genre.  However, the changes in the world are, for the most part, fairly superficial.  Yes, you fight different enemies, and yes, they say different things, but the game itself doesn't fundamentally change.  You don't have to find different solutions to problems and you don't get faced with new challenges based on how you've decided to play.  It all breaks down to the (really awesomely fun, don't get me wrong) RPG battle or conversation mechanics.  i don't blame Toby at all for not getting more wild with this; he said what he had to say, did something revolutionary and did it well, and then stopped within his limits.  

 

But what if, instead of a game that tweaks the boss battles depending on your choices, -- or just gave bosses more less HP depending on your menu selection of "easy" or "hard" --  your choices actually make it into a different game?  Let's say your goal is to rescue the princess.  Perhaps you go in, sword swinging, and slash your way through the guards in the usual manner.  This leads you into further gameplay of that kind, probably considered the easy-mode.  The game notices you're a fighter and so the in-game scenarios and characters adapt to that.  Or, perhaps you find a way to sneak into the castle and dodge the enemies instead of stabbing them, leading to a much harder, stealth and puzzle based challenge.  Or, maybe you decide to murder not only the obvious enemies, but also all the innocent townsfolk and bystanders, leading to a game where EVERYONE wants to stop you and you don't get help from shopkeepers or anything. Maybe this is harder?  Maybe it's easier?

 

Different choices lead to different difficulty levels which lead to different games.  That might be a way to suit everyone's tastes.  Of course, if you were going to do this, you'd need to have some kind of game structure that limited the amount of branching possible to keep the project manageable.  Hmmm...


Edited by C-Dawg, 23 February 2016 - 12:12 PM.

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#36 Shane

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:10 PM

And remember, there's always Let's Plays for the casuals who don't want to get good at the game but still want to see it the final content.  

Keep in mind watching someone else play the game isn't exactly the same as playing for yourself. Games aren't primarily for watching but playing and experiencing for yourself. Two different kinds of entertainment, and I and I'm sure others prefer the latter.

 

Edit: Saw post below. Apologies for not seeing that sooner. I deleted a good portion of my post.



#37 Evan20000

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:12 PM

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.


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#38 C-Dawg

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:13 PM

Evan, is there going to be hard-mode exclusive content in your game?

 

EDIT: I'm asking for a friend.


Edited by C-Dawg, 23 February 2016 - 12:13 PM.

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#39 Deedee

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:23 PM

Evan, is there going to be hard-mode exclusive content in your game?

 

EDIT: I'm asking for a friend.

 

 

 

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

There's probably not going to be hard-mode exclusive content either, just fyi.

 


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#40 Anthus

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:37 PM

I think super bosses are fine, as long as they are optional. I don't think players playing an an easier setting should be locked out of content either, but the boss should still be pretty tough. I don't think a super boss should be completely nerfed for easier settings, but there could be a way to give it less HP or something, but keep the battle the same. 


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#41 C-Dawg

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:37 PM

Yeah, Dimento, but what I want to know is whether there will be content exclusive to HARD MODE.

Edited by C-Dawg, 23 February 2016 - 12:38 PM.


#42 Moosh

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:38 PM

Hmm, but what if a game is built to play very differently depending on how you want to go through it?

 

I'm going to get on my soap box for a minute here.  Undertale did one thing very, very right - it made the world react to the player's choices in a logical way, questioning the stale mechanics of the RPG genre.  However, the changes in the world are, for the most part, fairly superficial.  Yes, you fight different enemies, and yes, they say different things, but the game itself doesn't fundamentally change.  You don't have to find different solutions to problems and you don't get faced with new challenges based on how you've decided to play.  It all breaks down to the (really awesomely fun, don't get me wrong) RPG battle or conversation mechanics.  i don't blame Toby at all for not getting more wild with this; he said what he had to say, did something revolutionary and did it well, and then stopped within his limits.  

 

But what if, instead of a game that tweaks the boss battles depending on your choices, -- or just gave bosses more less HP depending on your menu selection of "easy" or "hard" --  your choices actually make it into a different game?  Let's say your goal is to rescue the princess.  Perhaps you go in, sword swinging, and slash your way through the guards in the usual manner.  This leads you into further gameplay of that kind, probably considered the easy-mode.  The game notices you're a fighter and so the in-game scenarios and characters adapt to that.  Or, perhaps you find a way to sneak into the castle and dodge the enemies instead of stabbing them, leading to a much harder, stealth and puzzle based challenge.  Or, maybe you decide to murder not only the obvious enemies, but also all the innocent townsfolk and bystanders, leading to a game where EVERYONE wants to stop you and you don't get help from shopkeepers or anything. Maybe this is harder?  Maybe it's easier?

 

Different choices lead to different difficulty levels which lead to different games.  That might be a way to suit everyone's tastes.  Of course, if you were going to do this, you'd need to have some kind of game structure that limited the amount of branching possible to keep the project manageable.  Hmmm...

See, there's a very big difference between a game locking the player out of content because they made a choice and the game locking the player out of content because they're not good enough. And I can't fault a game for becoming too hard for some players by design. But if a game designer goes to the trouble of adding multiple difficulties only to go to the extra trouble of gating off content on certain difficulties, that's just kinda rude. At least do it like IoR did and have the bonus dungeon bump up the difficulty to normal mode while you're in it, so you can still play it if you have the skill. But even then, it's a little rude to say "You must git this gud to ride." I'd also have to say a game with a dynamic difficulty curve like you described and a game with multiple difficulty levels based on damage don't have to be mutually exclusive. Just designing a game well doesn't  mean you can't also add features that make it more accessible to players of different skill levels.


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#43 Mani Kanina

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:56 PM

Seems like an extreme position to me.  I propose that game should be well enough designed that at least a good portion of the people are motivated to play better and learn to master the game by the promise of getting whatever content it is that is "locked" behind difficult segments.  What's wrong with that?  
 
And remember, there's always Let's Plays for the casuals who don't want to get good at the game but still want to see it the final content.

Most people only play a game once, heck, most people don't even beat the entire game in the first place.

I don't have a problem with the argumentation that you'd want a game to motivate the players to better themselves. But what you're asking here is completely different, you're asking a player to essentially replay the entire experience (my in game clock in Isle of Rebirth is sitting at 25 hours, for reference, and I'm not at the end yet), just to experience that last bit of content. To be honest, I think most people will feel a bit disappointed at that and have no interested in replaying the entire game just to see the extras.

I don't think Shanes statement is extreme at all, if content is cut from the easier difficulties than 'is this game worth playing on anything below normal?' is a very real question that players are gonna ask themselves. And the end result will probably be that many people will play through a quest on a difficulty level that they are probably not comfortable with. I mean, heck, I have done this myself what with Isle of Rebirth. There is extra content in that which you can't access if you go down to easy, so I have not really had any interest in dropping down, even though I find the difficulty on the quest to be fairly absurd.
 
 
 

I'm going to get on my soap box for a minute here.  Undertale did one thing very, very right - it made the world react to the player's choices in a logical way, questioning the stale mechanics of the RPG genre.  However, the changes in the world are, for the most part, fairly superficial.  Yes, you fight different enemies, and yes, they say different things, but the game itself doesn't fundamentally change. You don't have to find different solutions to problems and you don't get faced with new challenges based on how you've decided to play.  It all breaks down to the (really awesomely fun, don't get me wrong) RPG battle or conversation mechanics.  i don't blame Toby at all for not getting more wild with this; he said what he had to say, did something revolutionary and did it well, and then stopped within his limits.

This statement is fundamentally untrue though. Undertale is somewhat of an interesting game because it does so many cool things, but at the core it mainly have three different play modes that are based on player actions. And there is very much so content that is locked to specific modes. One mode features two completely different and new boss fights, while the other two has the same bosses, how you beat them are very very different between the two. One of the modes as a completely unique area tied to it.

I also don't think you should understate the plot, the changes in the narrative between the modes are fundamentally different, and it certainly will have a large impact on players who play for the plot.

If anything Undertale would support the argument that locking content behind different things works, but then, the different modes/paths in undertale are not really that different in regards to difficulty, and the game is actually cleverly designed so that the player won't have to face the harder stuff unless they have already done the easier.
 

But what if, instead of a game that tweaks the boss battles depending on your choices, -- or just gave bosses more less HP depending on your menu selection of "easy" or "hard" --  your choices actually make it into a different game?  Let's say your goal is to rescue the princess.  Perhaps you go in, sword swinging, and slash your way through the guards in the usual manner.  This leads you into further gameplay of that kind, probably considered the easy-mode.  The game notices you're a fighter and so the in-game scenarios and characters adapt to that.  Or, perhaps you find a way to sneak into the castle and dodge the enemies instead of stabbing them, leading to a much harder, stealth and puzzle based challenge.  Or, maybe you decide to murder not only the obvious enemies, but also all the innocent townsfolk and bystanders, leading to a game where EVERYONE wants to stop you and you don't get help from shopkeepers or anything. Maybe this is harder?  Maybe it's easier?
 
Different choices lead to different difficulty levels which lead to different games.  That might be a way to suit everyone's tastes.  Of course, if you were going to do this, you'd need to have some kind of game structure that limited the amount of branching possible to keep the project manageable.  Hmmm...

While interesting, and I do think it's a worthwhile concept that most certainly works, it's also not really very relevant to this quest. Such a large design choice would have had to be made at the start or very early in production, and it makes for a fundamentally different type of game.
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#44 Evan20000

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 01:58 PM

On the subject of the superboss in question, I finished coding the superboss last night and one of the testers has already beaten it. Reception so far has been positive! :D
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#45 C-Dawg

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 02:08 PM

How close are you to calling the game totally complete, Evan?

 

 
This statement is fundamentally untrue though. Undertale is somewhat of an interesting game because it does so many cool things, but at the core it mainly have three different play modes that are based on player actions. And there is very much so content that is locked to specific modes. One mode features two completely different and new boss fights, while the other two has the same bosses, how you beat them are very very different between the two. One of the modes as a completely unique area tied to it.
 

 

Nah, dude.  Your choices influence the plot and give you access to one new area.  But, at the core, the only difference between the different modes is whether you win battles using the FIGHT or ACT commands.  Consider how much different it would be to try and play The Legend of Zelda and not hurt any of the enemies (ignore enemy shutters for the moment) compared to Undertale doing the same.  It's night and day.  You'd have to learn a whole new way of progressing and pathing to get through the game alive.  

 

But, yea, that's why I brought up Undertale -- it shows that locking parts of the game out to certain players works just fine.  




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