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#31 ZoriaRPG

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 08:32 PM

Well the idea is to have somewhat of a large, unified (or bifid, since you want NES-ish and SNES-ish sets) tileset, is it not? If two people make a "red" enemy with completely different palettes they can't both use cset 8 - at least not in the same quest (until 2.54 comes along, but you'd need a script which is no good for newbies). If there's a common cset structure, if not a common palette, then at least it's easier to make them work together.


While that 'would be nice', a single unified palette just does not work. I have tried this, in two quests, and it became a handicap, and a liability.

Designing the modules to use palette changing is critical. The target for these modules is 2.55, so, designing them will need to move to 2.54 after some of the basic stuff is ready; and default scripts will be provided in them, and set up in a way that allows using editor components to define them, quite easily. I've spent a lot of time ensuring that many of the core scripted components will be something that the user can edit from the editor, without ever needing to know how the script functions.

(This is somewhat of a hybrid between the base ZC philosophy, and the philosophy of Solarus; and it is what I suggested for Solarus as well, which seems to now be a goal for Christopho. In any event, scripted engine effects, and events, need never be visible to the end-user...)

(There's an awful lot of automation planned for this stuff.)

If you can suggest palette structures though, I am certainly not opposed to any of them. It's up to the entrants to decide how they want to organise stuff, but in general, i want to see these modules as easy to use, and using ZC features, wherever possible. Designing palettes to use the ZC palete structure is proba bly the best way to go, and SNEs graphics that use this format should work, as long as the level, sprite, and boss palettes are all designed to use the core features.

Zelda 3, as an example, loaded alternate palettes for the dark world, and most dungeons.

For a unified palette, scripted control would be the way to go. Load a completely custom palette at any time, changing every VSet to whatever colour swatches you want.

Otherwise, you are extremely limited to colour choices, and need to design all of your tiles in 8-bit. For these entries, tiles should be 4-colour (for NES, and Gameboy--although 16-colour is allowed for a 'Super Gameboy' entry, as that system could use SNES gfx)) and 16-colour (for SNES). I would prefer that 8-bit stuff be used only where absolutely needed.

I also prefer that tilesets are designed with both layering, and combo aliases, in mind; so that laying down screens becomes easier, and the need for tile/combo modification is mitigated.
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#32 Reflectionist

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 09:20 AM

Okay, I don't know how much help I can be at this, so I'm just going to post an idea here. The beautiful thing about Zelda is that its derivative of other culture's myths and stories (Robin Hood, Sword in the Stone, Tolkien's Middle Earth, Polytheistic philosophies from the Roman, Greek, Nordic, etc), plus all sorts of others, but viewed through a Japanese lens.

So maybe trying to see what ZeldaTM becomes without that lens could be interesting, yes?

Or to view it through the lens of another culture (what if the people viewed the Hero the same way as Zorro? Or Gotham by Gaslight Batman?)

Anyway, the symbols for Air, Earth, Fire, and Water are already triangles: http://www.themodern...1024x1024-1.png

See?

When overlaid, they create the Star of David. (I don't advocate for using religious symbols willy nilly, I'm just following a train of thought).

Well, that Star of David looks like it could very well inspire a subscreen design. Very similar to the custom one from the Subscreen Tutorial somewhere on this forum.

And now there's a completely non-ZeldaTM reason to reference triangles, and still hit the notes that Zelda does. (I would definitely try to make these different colors, like Darkstone's 8 Crystals).

The other thing I would check out is TV Tropes articles on ZeldaTM as a series, as individual games, etc. There's a page called "Sorting Algorithm of Threatening Geography" that I reference a lot, too. Anyway, those pages can be their own wormholes for inspiration.

Edited by Reflectionist, 29 January 2018 - 09:31 AM.


#33 P-Tux7

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 10:26 PM

ZeldaTM lol.

 

I was thinking that the "default" stuff probably shouldn't be the same as Zelda's tiles. I mean the expanded tileset can have grassland, cave, dungeon, etc. of course but I don't think the default quest, player, and enemies should call Zelda to mind too much or it will look like a complete ripoff. Like if you just make the Darknut a generic knight why change it in the first place. I was thinking about some aquatic themes...

 

Whistle: conch shell (that summons a wave)

Ghini: lionfish

Lanmola: sea snake

Leever: solefish

Digdogger: blowfish

Gohma: crab

Gleeok: squid (maybe design it like a firework to justify the "tentacles" flying off)



#34 klop422

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 05:22 AM

I don't necessarily agree with the fact that everything should be changed so it doesn't look at all like the Zelda stuff. The the Darknut, for example, does need to be changed, but I don't see why it couldn't be just a generic knight. Ideally, it's have its own features to make it stand out, but still.

 

That being said, I like the ideas for various of the items. The whistle being a Conch shell makes sense (though you'd have to make sure the sound designers knew that), and the Gleeok = Squid is a pretty good idea too (maybe add rocket launchers as well as suction cups to make it make sense that it's shooting stuff at you). And the Gohma -> crab conversion would be very easy.

I'd say that the Ghini has to be a ghost, though, given how it works. The sand enemies (Lanmola and Leever) could also maybe be aquatic, but you'd have to discuss that with the remainder of the group.

 

In any case, I think it's up to the people making the tilesets to decide.

 

 

On an unrelated note (though related to my entry), do the credits in ZC have a standardised length? If so, what is it (ideally in frames, but I'll take timing up to a tenth (or hundredth) of a second)?

I'd need it to work out my ending theme.



#35 ZoriaRPG

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 06:16 AM

ZeldaTM lol.
 
I was thinking that the "default" stuff probably shouldn't be the same as Zelda's tiles. I mean the expanded tileset can have grassland, cave, dungeon, etc. of course but I don't think the default quest, player, and enemies should call Zelda to mind too much or it will look like a complete ripoff. Like if you just make the Darknut a generic knight why change it in the first place. I was thinking about some aquatic themes...
 
Whistle: conch shell (that summons a wave)
Ghini: lionfish
Lanmola: sea snake
Leever: solefish
Digdogger: blowfish
Gohma: crab
Gleeok: squid (maybe design it like a firework to justify the "tentacles" flying off)


I disagree. Generic versions of Zelda enemies is ideal for this,. Obviously, making wholly original stuff is also good, but that isn't what a core module needs.
 
 

Lanmola: sea snake
Leever: solefish
Digdogger: blowfish
Gohma: crab



That's pretty much what most of them are, now. Thee lanmola as a sea serpent sounds cool, too. Gleeok shhoud remain a hydra of some sort.

Otherwise, generic versions of the base monsters is good. Orcs for Moblins, Knights for darknuts, and the like. I have no clue what should take the place of octorocks, but I'm sure that someone will come up with an interesting idea.

 
 
 

On an unrelated note (though related to my entry), do the credits in ZC have a standardised length? If so, what is it (ideally in frames, but I'll take timing up to a tenth (or hundredth) of a second)?



 

1,492 frames from Link standing next to Zelda, before the text scroll appears:
 

0    LINK at ZELDA's side
      288  begin WIPE (8px per side per step, each 5 frames)
      363  WIPE complete, DOT out, A/B items out
      QMisc.colors.link_dot = 255;
      show_subscreen_items = false;
      365  first MESSAGE character in
      371  next character in
      407  last character in
      668  LINK out, ZELDA out
      669  LINK in (TRIFORCE overhead), ZELDA in (TRIFORCE overhead)
      733  BLUE flash bg
      734  RED
      735  GREEN
      736  BLACK
      ...
      860  BLACK, LINK out, ZELDA out
      861  LINK in, ZELDA in
      927  first MSG character in
      935  next character in
      1335 last character in
      1461 LINK out, ZELDA out
      1492 end of Link and Zelda cutscene. 
      1493 begin SCROLL

 

The code/timing for scrolling text depends on the quest:

Custom quests, and 1st quest, should be 1,200 frames after frame 1,492.
2nd and above, 1,440 frames (also after frame 1,492), it seems.


So, custom quests and 1st.qst, the total ending time is 2,692 frames (44.8666666 [repeating] seconds).

2nd.qst and above, 2,932 frames (48.8666666 [repeating] seconds).



#36 klop422

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 06:24 AM

I'd almost just suggest little anthropomorphic (spelled right on the first try!) cannons for octorocks. But I'm not a graphics artist, so, again, it's not up to me.



#37 NoeL

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 05:27 PM

I have no clue what should take the place of octorocks, but I'm sure that someone will come up with an interesting idea.

 

I'd almost just suggest little anthropomorphic (spelled right on the first try!) cannons for octorocks. But I'm not a graphics artist, so, again, it's not up to me.

 

You can always just have little imps or something that throw rocks. There's nothing about the mechanics that requires the enemy to shoot rocks. That said though, if you want everything to look like copyright-dodging knockoffs to keep things familiar... how about a blocktorok? It's like an octorok but blockier. XD Yes this is a joke suggestion - pls dnt make it happn.


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#38 P-Tux7

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 07:18 PM

You can always just have little imps or something that throw rocks. There's nothing about the mechanics that requires the enemy to shoot rocks. That said though, if you want everything to look like copyright-dodging knockoffs to keep things familiar... how about a blocktorok? It's like an octorok but blockier. XD Yes this is a joke suggestion - pls dnt make it happn.

Actually, doesn't the Octorock only have walking sprites and not shooting? So it pretty much has to look like it can be walking and shooting at the same time, which is why the Octorock and Snifit look like cannon mouths. And actually, a walking cannon sounds very good since it is appropriate for the fire version as well.


Also, the reason I suggest for the base module to not look like Zelda is because if you make it similar to Zelda, there is no reason to use it if you can use Zelda graphics. It doesn't really give the ZC editor a "branded" feel that is as quality as a normal Nintendo game if everything is generic, and it also makes it easier to call the engine a ripoff of Zelda if it actually looks like one. It will make it harder to take it seriously as anything but a Zelda clone maker if "sword kid fighting goblins on sand and grass" is the first impression. I mean, what even is Digdogger? No one knows, but it's very iconic.


Sorry for triple post. Are we actually trying to  make something with a vivid world that will lead to imaginative sequels like the real Zelda games, or are we making something that is basically designed to be replaced with the "real" Zelda graphics.



#39 ZoriaRPG

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 01:06 AM

Actually, doesn't the Octorock only have walking sprites and not shooting? So it pretty much has to look like it can be walking and shooting at the same time, which is why the Octorock and Snifit look like cannon mouths. And actually, a walking cannon sounds very good since it is appropriate for the fire version as well.Also, the reason I suggest for the base module to not look like Zelda is because if you make it similar to Zelda, there is no reason to use it if you can use Zelda graphics. It doesn't really give the ZC editor a "branded" feel that is as quality as a normal Nintendo game if everything is generic, and it also makes it easier to call the engine a ripoff of Zelda if it actually looks like one. It will make it harder to take it seriously as anything but a Zelda clone maker if "sword kid fighting goblins on sand and grass" is the first impression. I mean, what even is Digdogger? No one knows, but it's very iconic.
Sorry for triple post. Are we actually trying to  make something with a vivid world that will lead to imaginative sequels like the real Zelda games, or are we making something that is basically designed to be replaced with the "real" Zelda graphics.


Digdogger is in fact, a sea urchin. The original game manual made that clear.

The goal is to make an easy to use replacement for Zelda graphics, but hey-oh, if you want to make something that people would find to be stunning and originl, none of us wil stop you.

(The ZQuest palette restrictions, might.)

#40 P-Tux7

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 10:01 PM

(sorry, still trying to make a good palette)

 

What I mean is, is this meant to get people to stop using Zelda graphics, or is this a purely Cover Your Butt replacement so that it isn't TECHNICALLY Zelda? If it looks too much like Zelda, it seems like that will just make people want to download the real Zelda tileset.



#41 NoeL

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 04:35 AM

Actually, doesn't the Octorock only have walking sprites and not shooting? So it pretty much has to look like it can be walking and shooting at the same time

Pretty much all Z1 enemies only have walking sprites and not shooting. They typically telegraph shots by pausing their movement - octoroks do this too. Mechanically, octoroks are identical to moblins and lynels.

 

The only thing you'd possibly need to consider is that, unlike moblins and lynels, Z1 octoroks have the same north/south sprites (just flipped vertically). I think ZC should remove the old 1.0 Z1 enemy animations and stick with expanded animations. They can easily replicate the NES restrictions without actually being restricted by them.



#42 ZoriaRPG

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 07:10 AM

(sorry, still trying to make a good palette)
 
What I mean is, is this meant to get people to stop using Zelda graphics, or is this a purely Cover Your Butt replacement so that it isn't TECHNICALLY Zelda? If it looks too much like Zelda, it seems like that will just make people want to download the real Zelda tileset.


The main goal, is to protect thelegal status ofZC, and to create assets that we can distribute with the source code. That will neither make more people want to use Z1 graphics, nor prevent them from doing that. (There will be 'extra packages' with those, in module format, for those who want them.)

Pretty much all Z1 enemies only have walking sprites and not shooting. They typically telegraph shots by pausing their movement - octoroks do this too. Mechanically, octoroks are identical to moblins and lynels.
 
The only thing you'd possibly need to consider is that, unlike moblins and lynels, Z1 octoroks have the same north/south sprites (just flipped vertically). I think ZC should remove the old 1.0 Z1 enemy animations and stick with expanded animations. They can easily replicate the NES restrictions without actually being restricted by them.


They are needed to ensure compatibility with older quests, without endless hacks in the engine.

#43 Cukeman

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 07:36 AM

Let's say you completely replace all the visuals.

Would derivate tilesets still be hosted?


Edited by Cukeman, 14 February 2018 - 07:37 AM.


#44 P-Tux7

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 09:34 PM

Let's say you completely replace all the visuals.

Would derivate tilesets still be hosted?

Didn't @ZoriaRPG say that he wouldn't forbid copyrighted content?



#45 Cukeman

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 02:19 AM

Hosted tilesets aren't part of the ZC program package.


Edited by Cukeman, 18 February 2018 - 06:34 AM.




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