74 replies to this topic

[Radien]

See, the problem is that Zelda Classic doesn't like handling maximum HP that isn't in increments of 16. So if you want 1/4 hearts, you'll have to script the continue feature to work properly...

So wait, are you saying there's a bug that prevents it from working?

That's annoying. Because it really should be possible given the current features. Oh well...

[Schwa]

Heart Pieces? Hmmm...

My primary verdict is that it would have to depend on the Quest in question. In a Quest like Link's Birthday DX, the Heart Pieces felt more natural and flavorful (yes it is a real word I HATH DECREED IT), whether they "meant anything" or not. Maybe that's 'cause The Mister Zee was a master at making quests that closely resemble Nintendo's stuff (read: PROFESSIONALISM ). Anyway, it doesn't cut it for every Quest out there, only some, and no I am not talking about fancy gimmicks with the Life Meter~

It's more about flavor than usability. A Heart Piece isn't so much a "reward" as it is "Hey, this really fits here, y'know?" I don't have a better way to word it, but there you go.

I personally am against excessive ammo upgrades. I think over-ammo-ifying (yes it is a real word now too) weapons overpowers them. Remember too that you're talking to someone who zero-gamed First Quest in LoZ with the Wooden Sword the entire way (and recorded it, check my DailyMotion ), where I had to heavily rely on bombs to put a dent in those atrocities known as Blue Wizzrobes, as nothing else really worked (close-range sword combat is a NIGHTMARE and you're likely to get decked several times during their Diagonal Phase-Step). And I appreciated the challenge, 'cause there'd be no real bragging rights if I could carry 99 bombs and everyone would've told me "HAHAWZ MAH GRANDMA CAN DO THAT U NUBCAKE".

Secrets are all kind of a mixed bag. Again, to summarize, it would really have to depend on the Quest. There is a reason why we all specialize in different Quest-making styles, amirite? One of the hugest (another word that exists now) aspects of Quest-crafting excellency is knowing how to exploit your own design style to get the most out of it, which only comes through practice and growth (or growth and practice, take your pick). I like pie.

I can. FIERCE DIETY MASK.

Although I'm not sure how to translate something like that into a ZC-style reward.

I am.

Just you wait.

[Avaro]

Heart Pieces? Hmmm...

My primary verdict is that it would have to depend on the Quest in question. In a Quest like Link's Birthday DX, the Heart Pieces felt more natural and flavorful (yes it is a real word I HATH DECREED IT), whether they "meant anything" or not. Maybe that's 'cause The Mister Zee was a master at making quests that closely resemble Nintendo's stuff (read: PROFESSIONALISM ). Anyway, it doesn't cut it for every Quest out there, only some, and no I am not talking about fancy gimmicks with the Life Meter~

It's more about flavor than usability. A Heart Piece isn't so much a "reward" as it is "Hey, this really fits here, y'know?" I don't have a better way to word it, but there you go.

I personally am against excessive ammo upgrades. I think over-ammo-ifying (yes it is a real word now too) weapons overpowers them. Remember too that you're talking to someone who zero-gamed First Quest in LoZ with the Wooden Sword the entire way (and recorded it, check my DailyMotion ), where I had to heavily rely on bombs to put a dent in those atrocities known as Blue Wizzrobes, as nothing else really worked (close-range sword combat is a NIGHTMARE and you're likely to get decked several times during their Diagonal Phase-Step). And I appreciated the challenge, 'cause there'd be no real bragging rights if I could carry 99 bombs and everyone would've told me "HAHAWZ MAH GRANDMA CAN DO THAT U NUBCAKE".

Secrets are all kind of a mixed bag. Again, to summarize, it would really have to depend on the Quest. There is a reason why we all specialize in different Quest-making styles, amirite? One of the hugest (another word that exists now) aspects of Quest-crafting excellency is knowing how to exploit your own design style to get the most out of it, which only comes through practice and growth (or growth and practice, take your pick). I like pie.

So you think that HeartPieces are there because they fit there? ZC quests don't have to be like the Nintendo-Zeldas.

[Littlelink91]

@ Robin I think your a little off on what you were trying to say. Its okay though, I understand what your saying. I'm sorry beforehand if a post like mine trends out. But at the time, I still wanted to say that I didn't like the idea of this thread whether my post was on topic or not. Sorry! :3 (Yes i've learned my lesson and I won't commit to any similar unnecessary comments in the near to distant future kthx)

EDIT: Okay fine Radien, presto chango! :S I give in. I change my viewpoints? on this. As well with any other topics where my feelings get in the way first before accepting and going with the flow of a topic. I may not like your idea, but the results derived from discussing the make up of a videogame is more useful than doing nothing. Btw I wasn't attempting to make an argument when mentioning about total life. I was just saying that I like the idea of collecting little pieces of a heart container which end up making a whole one. Thats all. Okay..

Edited by littlelink91, 22 March 2011 - 12:54 PM.

[Nathaniel]

Nobody is telling you to change your viewpoint, littlelink91. But people will still defend theirs just like you would defend your own. We just ask that you accept the fact that some people won't share yours, and be okay with hearing it. The same would apply to everybody else here. Tolerating other viewpoints doesn't mean the same thing as agreeing with them. As for the heart piece collecting: Some like it, and some don't, and it's perfectly okay either way. Both sides equally have the same rights to believing what they want. What matters on an internet forum such as this is not the opinions people hold, but rather how people choose to express them and thus carry themselves.

[King Harkinian]

To get this back on topic, let me just say I agree with you all who dislike the heart container pieces. They work great in the real Zelda games, the epic ones such as wind waker or twilight princess, however in ZC it's totally not worth it unless the heart pieces are a staple in the games, like a game where you need to get all four complete heart containers to get to the final level. ZC has so many other possibilities which fit in more with the scale of the games it creates. If for some reason in 50 billion years when ZC 3.0 comes out and its a lot stronger and more powerful. Maybe when we create the next Lost Isle or BoaB, then heart containers might make sense. In my opinion the way Nintendo uses the heart pieces is appropriate to the game which they are in. However ZC could probably kiss them goodbye. Just a thought.

[Sheik]

He just put LI and BB on the same level. I'm speechless.
Yeah, offtopic but I kinda felt like mentioning it. Really, my lower lit just fell on the ground, reading this.
But anyways, back on topic. I think that (eventhough they aren't very nice) HCPs can work even in a ZC quest. But than there has to be a really clever system behind it.
What could for example work was if there was a bonus dungeon (or multiple bonus dungeons) that hide 4 HCP each. So to get another HC you have to beat the whole dungeon.

[Radien]

Schwa:

Well, I'm gonna stand by my statement that the fun is usually more about the quest to get the HCP, rather than the value of the item itself, and rewarding the player with a better item than a HCP seals the deal to make it more enjoyable.

As for ammo upgrades... I wasn't really suggesting the Wind Waker method of "10/30/50/99" or whatever crazy amount of max ammo they gave you for the upgrades. Especially since, as you stated, Zelda 1 bombs are insanely powerful weapons. Of course, you can always use the editor to weaken them... but personally, I'd rather give the ammo upgrades in smaller increments, which again is like they did in Zelda 1. In fact, in DoR I'm starting the quest off with a max of only 4.

The "exploit your game design style" comment makes complete sense, but I can't see how it wouldn't.

Good luck with that Fierce Deity Mask item. Sounds fun.

EDIT: Okay fine Radien, presto chango! :S I give in. I change my viewpoints? on this. As well with any other topics where my feelings get in the way first before accepting and going with the flow of a topic. I may not like your idea, but the results derived from discussing the make up of a videogame is more useful than doing nothing. Btw I wasn't attempting to make an argument when mentioning about total life. I was just saying that I like the idea of collecting little pieces of a heart container which end up making a whole one. Thats all. Okay..

So lemme get this straight... you came into what was clearly going to be an opinionated discussion, and now you're mocking the idea of people arguing a topic? What was the point of coming in?

It's true that people willing to debate are generally stubborn about their stance and unlikely to change it. But that doesn't mean nothing should ever be discussed. If you'll read the topic, I did change one person's mind. And who knows who might be reading this, taking it all in without saying anything?

Oh, and it's a little silly to act like I was targeting you specifically when I started this thread. Obviously you know I wasn't, but you're acting like that was my goal.

To get this back on topic, let me just say I agree with you all who dislike the heart container pieces. They work great in the real Zelda games, the epic ones such as wind waker or twilight princess, however in ZC it's totally not worth it unless the heart pieces are a staple in the games, like a game where you need to get all four complete heart containers to get to the final level. ZC has so many other possibilities which fit in more with the scale of the games it creates. If for some reason in 50 billion years when ZC 3.0 comes out and its a lot stronger and more powerful. Maybe when we create the next Lost Isle or BoaB, then heart containers might make sense. In my opinion the way Nintendo uses the heart pieces is appropriate to the game which they are in. However ZC could probably kiss them goodbye. Just a thought.

Ironic that you mention TP and WW... I think those two are pretty bad offenders in the "useless rewards" department.

Just for the record, though, I like both of those games very much. But it's only because everything ELSE is so much fun that I'm willing to overlook the uselessness of most of their optional collectibles.

(Oh, and WW didn't do it ALL wrong when it came to rewards. I liked the ammo upgrades, the trade-in trinkets, and the large wallet capacity, for instance.)

What could for example work was if there was a bonus dungeon (or multiple bonus dungeons) that hide 4 HCP each. So to get another HC you have to beat the whole dungeon.

Again, I like this idea, but functionally speaking, it's only slightly different from putting an actual HC in the dungeon. However, I still think it's the best use of HCPs that I have heard yet. If you're going to use HCPs, definitely try this method. It seemed to work decently well to have two HCPs per dungeon in Majora's Mask, and it might be even better to have four.

[Moosh]

He just put LI and BB on the same level. I'm speechless.

Don't mean to derail the topic, but this statement offends me. The two quests balance out. BB has some sort of fun that is absent in LI and LI has a sense of officialness that is absent in BB. They are both very good quests for different reasons. Don't be hatin'.

[Jared]

Ironic that you mention TP and WW... I think those two are pretty bad offenders in the "useless rewards" department.

Actually, WW's things were pretty great. You used pretty much all the items for everything.
TP on the other hand...*Points to Spinner* Yeah. Used for a total of two (Count it, two!) small sidequests in the overworld.

[Radien]

Actually, WW's things were pretty great. You used pretty much all the items for everything.
TP on the other hand...*Points to Spinner* Yeah. Used for a total of two (Count it, two!) small sidequests in the overworld.

I was actually referring to optional rewards, most of which are offered in chests on the overworld. So, not the Spinner, but the stuff you got in the chests after USING the Spinner. I think the usefulness of dungeon items is a slightly different topic.

But yes, the Spinner had the potential to be lots of fun, but you only used it a small handful of times outside of the dungeon in which it was found. I would've liked to see more Spinner tracks...in the last three dungeons, if nothing else.

[Jared]

Yeah, plus it didn't go very fast without the tracks, but they pulled it off very well in it's temple, very fun to play with there!

[Tree]

Well in wind waker, you fight a a bunch of enemies in 50 floors. And all you get at the end is a piece of heart. That is not worth it at all! That's the only time I can think of Zelda games giving you a measly heart container for a lot of work. Usually, they are very easy to find. So, they aren't a big deal. Although, in TP, I can barely find any heart containers. Probably because the overworld is just so huge.

[Radien]

Yeah, plus it didn't go very fast without the tracks, but they pulled it off very well in it's temple, very fun to play with there!

Yeah, it's meant to be pretty much useless without the tracks or a Spinner trigger. I wonder if they'll bring it back again.

Interestingly, I actually found a use for it without a track. You know those Gohma larvae in the Light Temple? Try getting on the spinner and riding into a group of them while jamming the A button. Any larvae that are behind Link's back will run straight into the Spinner and get hit. Easiest way to kill them quickly without wasting ammo.

Anyway, back on topic...

Well in wind waker, you fight a a bunch of enemies in 50 floors. And all you get at the end is a piece of heart. That is not worth it at all! That's the only time I can think of Zelda games giving you a measly heart container for a lot of work. Usually, they are very easy to find. So, they aren't a big deal. Although, in TP, I can barely find any heart containers. Probably because the overworld is just so huge.

Yeah, that's the problem I'm talking about.

The 50-floor dungeon in WW and the Cave of Ordeals in TP are both that sort of bonus battle dungeon. It is a fun and welcome challenge, but at the end, it's over, and you don't really have anything to show for it except the knowledge that you did it and succeeded. It'd be more satisfying if you got something cool, like a Biggoron Sword-type weapon, or something. Even if you don't really need it, it'd be a nice souvenir.

[DarkFlameWolf]

My quests = HCPs.
Plain and simple. I like using them, I'll continue to use them. End of story. You all make valid points, but this is how I create quests.Why change something I'm already good at?