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#1 Gleeok

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:34 AM

Q: Do we really need something like this?
A: Yes. Yes we do. :D

Quid pro quo:
One of the largest flaws of making rooms, sequences, or even levels so incredibly difficult is the fact that when one dies he/she must redo everything up to the point where one previously died - this can be once, twice, or it can be one hundred times or more, despite the fact that the only place one needed practice and improved skill in beating was nowhere near an entrance or save point. This also has the byproduct of reducing re-playability to practically zero. It is clear the game doesn't care about any of that, as long as it's hard and the player can't "cheat" it's up to you to deal with it.

I believe this is wrong not only fundamentally, but practically as well. The player should always be given the benefit of the doubt under questionable circumstances even if it means they could somehow cheat their way through some type of progression or even chance lady luck. Therefore, in order to make such a hard game fair, the game must be designed on a micro-level in order to maintain flow, balance, and above all else-fun, in all of it's sum parts, even if this means over-compensation in areas which may dramatically reduce overall death count. Is death-count the going currency for how hard a game is? I would hope that it is not.

Cheap difficulty-to be described as any point where you have to die or take considerable damage without consent-should be avoided.

No candle fire damage: No one should ever have to need the candle to cross spikes or avoid bubbles. I'm retiring this gimmick.

Minimalism vs Maximalism:
In order to perpetually challenge the player we needed to take away. Take away attacks, take away items, take away rings, or even more evil-take away item drops. We needed to take away squares - with spikes, with conveyors, with armos's, and with blocks. I believe that path has been trodden and explored, and so we need to look to create brand new challenges by building-up instead of breaking-down. (Of course a falling over 20 ft. tall player is still going to be fun.) More attacks, more items, more enemies, more bosses, and more dynamics.

And lo, the battle line is drawn. Is it possible to make such a difficult quest with all new content with the chance of being beatable without even dying once (if you are really good, that is)? I submit to you that it is.

I have always managed to make everything complex and overly hard and then spend much time "dumbing it down", adding easy settings, or even removing things completely. Now it's time for all that to change. There won't be an easy mode. I won't worry about whether players will be able to beat it or not. And I won't even care if no one else can beat it at all. As long as I strive to keep these design paramount then the game will be fair, even if it seems utterly impossible for most players.

#2 ZoriaRPG

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 03:48 AM

I have to agree with you here. Using cheap deaths and impossible situations to increase game difficulty is old hat, and we need something that sets a new standard, even if players such as myself would find it impossible to complete the game.

Examine 'Lost Isle': The difficulty factors of needing to re-cover ground, avoid enemies that are nearly impossible to beat, and fall into pits with no indication that it could happen all work together to make it a frustrating experience, robbing a lot of the fun out of it.

Removing potions and other items, and having no shops (essentially) where one could buy items, did not make the game more challenging. It made it frustrating, when you open chests and find three shields that you don't need, only to have it stolen soon thereafter, with no more backups, or accidentally use potions, or gather three potions, with no way to replenish them. (I used potions twice during cut-scenes.)

I'm curious what you create here, and look forward to future reports on concepts to make difficulty fair.

#3 David

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 05:58 AM

Nice update but...

FIVE GLEEOKS THAT AREN'T STACKED?!?!?!?! Don't you remember that I couldn't even beat two in Green Ninja? Lol :XD:

#4 Alucard648

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:00 AM

I am suggesting just one thing: ONE-HIT-KILL possbilities everywhere! 75 hearts chopped off by a measly bat that kicks Link into a bottomless pit or a super-powerful damage combo which is scripted to bust trough everything including Nayru`s Love!

EDIT: I would also suggest to include a gory (explode-into-ludicrous-gibs with loud balloon popping sound) death animation for Link in case for being instant-killed by anything. Let the death count skyrocket into four-digit numbers!

#5 ZoriaRPG

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 05:26 PM

You're missing the point. Cheap deaths such as what you suggested are not part of his plan: Anyone can do that. Gleeok wants to make a truly challenging game without cheap deaths... I favour that idea.

I would like to see some intense, cunning and mentally challenging puzzles, and bosses that have a strategy, based on learnable patterns. New uses for items, that add tot the context of the game and are required for defeating foes and solving puzzles would be nice.

For example, in TGC, I made a Chinese Hopping Vampire, that if he catches you, drains MP until you kill him. He has a weakness that kills him instantly, as long as you have not been caught, and those versed in Nosferatu lore may figure it out. I also added jumping ninjas that toss three throwing stars, are hard to kill, and steal rupees on touching you. They both require tactics, rather than relying on being avoided or spammed.

I also changed grave ghosts to be weak to a specific piece of equipment, which requires the player to deduce through clues in the game. You don't need to make a game filled with one-hit deaths to make it hard or challenging. by far, the greatest challenge for most players is to think out of a situation.

When I run RPGs, I force the players to resort to cunning and deep thought to solve problems, rather than relying on magic or super-funky-powers to get out of a crisis. I always leave at least one way of escape, if they choose to use it, and if they can figure out what it is. My games require intelligence, rather than brute force.

#6 Marco

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:37 AM

Well this is the kitties titties, eh?

Very inspiring, and I love this new foundation for this genra-esque quests

#7 Nightmare

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:39 PM

Gleeok's going to be the most hated Zelda Classic developer ever, lol.

Good luck!

-James

#8 yowza

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:47 PM

Can't wait for this, and if all else fails, will watch Yloh's youtube playthrough of it since he owns all challenge quests.

My most hated thing in Liberation of Hyrule was needing to get through around a dozen rooms in level 8 only to have a chance at the patra 3 at the end. Whatever is planned, I hope there are more things like Moosh's hookshot 2 quest where the boss is at the beginning of the dungeon through a boss key door so getting back to the boss isn't such a pain.

#9 Anthus

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 07:49 PM

I'm all for challenging games, but in 2013, it's hard to ask someone to sit down and try the same thing 100+ times. I hated levels six and seven in the original Zelda cause there were those few rooms at the end of each that absolutely kicked your ass (on the first few playthroughs or so). I don't mind hard as shit challenges, as long as they don't literally waste my time. If a quest, or game for that matter is going to be designed with insane difficulty, it should be fair in the sense that is doesn't require you to trod through the same shit again and again, and again, and again, and again, and one more time where you finally get it, but it crashes/ freezes, then again, and again, and about three more times just for dying once on one part. In games that are super hard, you should continue in the room where you died. I'll quit a game, or not even play it at all if I know I will be spending an exorbitant amount of time on one thing, when that one thing is getting back to where I was just at to have one more split second timing shot at it, or maybe one more potion just so I can get bullshitted to death in a corner by Goriyas with homing boomerangs, and Fire Wizrobes.

I don't dislike insane challenges, but I think they should be what they are; challenges, in and of themselves. There's no reason to test a players "skill" by making then do stuff over and over again prior to that. Here's an example; I love Final Fantasy 3, but hate it at the same time cause of its insanely stupid effing save system that only lets you save on the overworld, and you may invest an hour plus in a dungeon just to die. Ugh, no thanks. My time is valuable, and I don't want to feel like I'm wasting it playing a game which is meant to be fun.

Challenge the player, but don't waste their time.
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#10 Gleeok

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 10:37 PM

I agree with most of what you guys said, and again: I will try to eliminate the "frustration" factor as much as possible, including redundant room repeats. However, the challenges will slowly get faster as well, not only harder, meaning that most players will come up against their own personal wall at some point and simply wont be able to beat it short term no matter how many times they try -- a good example of this is the "Dual Gleeok" room from GN.

Anthus: If at any point the 1st or 2nd quest gives someone any problems, I would then suggest not playing something like this seriously! It's meant for people that can speed-run those easily. :P

I think maybe I'll start an "Idea" topic if anyone wants to post some.

As for Demos (I've finished LVs 1 and 3, with some work done to four others) ,for feedback and balance testing, I'm on the fence whether to have them public or private.

#11 James24

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 03:42 AM

I can't believe I missed this.  Its a beautiful demo Gleeok and the rooms remind me of a certain quest by a certain someone - can't quite put my finger on it :)   It gets my tick of approval for
a challenge quest demo - and what a challenge it was.  I had to seriously stretch myself to beat this thing.  And I was not only stretched by the lovingly balanced kaizo difficulty but also mentally.  I had to think about the right tactics to beat certain rooms otherwise they'd have been impossible.
 
The design is quite clever and your normally easy Zelda enemies have been transformed into brutal killing machines due to the very nice design and balance of the room's environment.  The boss was particularly simple but oh so brutal.  It took me the better part of two hours to beat and over 100 deaths and I don't think its possible without mastering the teleporting system.  One of the hardest bosses I've played against - yet arguably the simplest.
 
The only things I'd criticise are the squemishness towards mandatory damage and the teleportation system's effect on some rooms.  I say using your health as a resource is ok, just so long as the challenge is possible in the end.  And some of my beautiful LoH rooms have been destroyed by your teleporter.  They aren't being played the way they were meant to be played haha.  Oh, and did you intend to have 4 and 3/4 hearts in the game?  I searched everywhere for the final HCP but I concluded that it was some sick prank that you are pulling on the player just to troll them.
 
If anyone is looking to get rustled up for a few hours then this demo certainly does the job well.  Pity it didn't get finished though.

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#12 Gleeok

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:50 AM

Wow, it's been a while since I even played this thing let alone work on it, but I'm glad you were able to get into the strange mindset it takes to finish the demo James. Most people don't like the teleporting mechanic but I am fascinated by it, so much so that every 2D prototype I've made have variations on the theme (a few I did in c++). It takes a while to get used to at first, but after a few hours it starts to become more second nature and I personally have so much fun being everywhere and nowhere, finding fun ways to use geometry to stab stuff and make screens. Of course the boss was a temporary placeholder and is the cheap-o enemy there--I regret throwing it in the demo to be honest.

I'll have to look, but I believe I have all of LV2 finished if you want to mess with it (no cheap bosses in this one). It's doubtful I'll ever finish it unless someone wants to co-author it or help with Levels, but there is a few unfinished Levels and unfinished arenas. The scripts were mostly completed so I'd say I have about half done.


The basic Game like thingy I envisioned is separated like so:
There are 3 introductory Levels. Every Level is themed to have different enemies and different mechanics and scripts where you basically just collect lots of helpful items. Then you get thrown into the 'arena complex' which contains multiple (also skip-able) arenas that are connected to each other and must be completed in a set amount of time (..with lots of cocaine and desperation I might add). Then you pass through the Land of Light and Darkness and fight some demi-god final boss or something. ...But meh, I forget if I changed any of this.


[edit] Also, in case you are wondering the name is mostly satirical. Although LoH would be (is) harder than this quest I do have a secret up my sleeve (goddammit, thanks to Trump I can no longer say 'trump card'... thanks asshole...), and that is the normal playthrough is 'easy mode'.

#13 James24

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:36 PM

If you have level 2 ready I'd love to play it.



#14 Gleeok

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:19 PM

I'll dig up all my quest files and scripts for it and put together the most recent version I can find and then put up a new demo after I do a playthrough.

The old password for the quest was "GreenNinja" but it appears I changed it a long time ago and it doesn't work anymore. I'll make sure the password is given out at the end of the demo this time. Sorry about that.
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