14 replies to this topic

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

Hey guys!

I'm gonna get straight to the point: There's been some... battering about the lack of MotM's lately, and some have even gone out and said that we need new hosters to remedy this. Why? Well, that's just it... there's no reason to add MORE people to this, as me and Linkus is already doing a really good job. (Yes, I said that ) See, the problem here is that we haven't had a huge number of submissions lately, and while I can agree that we hosters could have gone out and said "we need more maps", everyone knows what MotM is, and put together that with the fact that we actually did remind everyone, and I think it's easier to see where the problem actually comes from. Now listen, I'm not trying to blame anyone for the lack of content. We can't always be making maps, and I mean, each and every one of us has a life to take care of too, so I understand that ZC will have some dry-periods. And that's okay.

For a few weeks however, we have had a decent number of submissions ready. I was about to post it last month, with only three submissions, but then someone came to me and said they wanted to submit a map, and I've always liked to have at least four maps in a MotM, so I waited. This month however, we have more than enough maps actually, and I'm going to ask anyone of you that has a map ready to be submitted to wait for next month. XD Seriously, I know it's really cool to have lots of maps and stuff, but we already have enough for this month, and I really wouldn't mind having some for next month either.

Anyways, thank you to everyone who have submitted so far. I promise to do my best to keep the ship floating. I will post up the next MotM in a little while, but it's a one-time thing. Next MotM after that will be posted at the beginning of next month. I know it's a short time, but I already have at least one submission for that month.

Just thought I'd let you know.

[Sheik]

Right I see.
However, I always wondered, what makes a map a "map" and not just a "bunch of screens". I want to know how big you want the submissions to be at least. And since I've never read it anywhere here (might've overseen it, though), I think this is the place to ask.
If you said 2x2 is enough, than I think a whole lot of more people would submit maps, for they wouldn't be revealing too much about their quests that way. 4 screens can be enough to give a little inside and an overall idea of a certain area, without giving away too much.
My two cents.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

Right I see.
However, I always wondered, what makes a map a "map" and not just a "bunch of screens". I want to know how big you want the submissions to be at least. And since I've never read it anywhere here (might've overseen it, though), I think this is the place to ask.
If you said 2x2 is enough, than I think a whole lot of more people would submit maps, for they wouldn't be revealing too much about their quests that way. 4 screens can be enough to give a little inside and an overall idea of a certain area, without giving away too much.
My two cents.

Oh right. I did actually write up a "rules of submissions" topic back when MotM was started...
http://www.purezc.co...o...=35757&st=0

As I said in it, you have to have a minimum of four screens. That's 2x2 if you make a box

[Sheik]

1: The maps HAS to be more than four screens.

So it's actually at least 5 screens. Well, I'd change that to at least 4, a square of screen looks somewhat prettier.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

So it's actually at least 5 screens. Well, I'd change that to at least 4, a square of screen looks somewhat prettier.

No, it has to have four screens. I said four, not five.

EDIT: I guess it could be changed to "Maps has to have at least four screens"...

[Jupiter]

For what it's worth, I think 4 screens is a bit paltry to warrant calling it a "map".

I understand the point about lowering the barriers of entry by keeping the limit small, and it's a good one.

But, firstly, I don't think that a mere 4 screens can be called a "map". That seems like calling two slices a pizza, it feels insufficient and incomplete. Secondly, people aren't going to tend to vote for a 4 screen map for that very reason...I would think people would tend to see a 4 screen map as not enough to compete against someone who took the time to complete a bigger map. Putting together a few good screens isn't nearly as impressive as mapping out a full dmap or even a quarter of a dmap...

I'd make it at least 8-9 screens...are a bare minimum of 6. But I leave it to your judgement naturally.

[Sheik]

Sadly, showing complete maps of your quest is like spoiling a whole area, and lots f gamedesigners hate doing this. Me, for one. Thus, 4 screens do the job of giving a little preview rather than beeing big spoiler (which are generellay bad in my understanding). And that's why I like the 4 screens-minimum, actually.

[Xiion]

You mean my 5.5 month undefeated reign of terror is going to end?! NOOOOOO!!!

*Ahem*

Actually, this is encouraging. I've wanted to submit something for a while now, just to get this restarted, but I haven't been working to finish maps for a while. But I might be able to pull something together for next month. Maybe.

4 Screens is a bare minimum on size. I don't think anyone's submitted a map that small yet. And I don't recall anyone mention map size as a criteria for "why I didn't vote for this map". So it hasn't been an issue really.

[Russ]

I actually think four screens is a bit small. If I post a 2x2 block, I don't call it a map. I call it a screen. Think of LttP. One of those screens is the size of a 2x2 block of ZC screens. But would you submit one LttP screen and call it a map? Of course not! I think 6 screens should be the bare minimum, with people encouraged, but not required, to submit more.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

I don't care if you think four screens is too small to be honest. This is something I decided back when I started MotM, and I'm not changing that rule. Besides, Sheik makes an excellent point.

However, a larger map might have an advantage over the smaller ones, but it's still up to the developer to decide what to do. Seriously, this is a non-debatable topic. I don't mean to sound too strict or anything, but that one rule of submission is set in stone, at least for as long as I steer the ship.

[Jupiter]

I don't care if you think four screens is too small to be honest. This is something I decided back when I started MotM, and I'm not changing that rule. Besides, Sheik makes an excellent point.

However, a larger map might have an advantage over the smaller ones, but it's still up to the developer to decide what to do. Seriously, this is a non-debatable topic. I don't mean to sound too strict or anything, but that one rule of submission is set in stone, at least for as long as I steer the ship.

To be honest I don't care if you don't care, Migo. Your lack of give-a-$#!T doesn't make it a good policy, even if you've decided to declare--with a harumph--that you aren't open to debate, that's that, I'll be in my room with the door closed!

You're setting the policy, and will apparently do what pleases you. That's fine. I've scrolled through most of the maps of the month and haven't really seen submissions that were as small as 2x2 so it's really a non-issue anyway, I guess.

But still, if I'm seeing a mere 4 screens I am not seeing a map. I am seeing screen design. I'm not going to learn much about the layout of an overworld or dungeon and the creative ways that people transition from section to section of their map, or the ways that they connect pathways from screen to screen, or how people keep things interesting and varied for a big area of their game, etc. We have SotW for screen design. MotM should be a demonstration of how to layout, you know, a map. You should win, in part, for how you have gone about creating a world or part of a world, not a single place in it.

If you're protective of your map and don't want to reveal too much...then don't submit it. Or make a copy of your file and delete screens you don't want to reveal before submitting it...you could even edit out parts or maybe put a layer of clouds over things that you don't want to reveal.

If the concern is that people won't submit maps if the requirement is too large, well, they aren't actually submitting maps if they submit a 2x2 block of screens.

Sorry, but calling 4 screens a "map" is laughable on it's face. I won't be swayed on that regardless of how foolishly consistent you are to this "set in stone" rule (I doubt it would take a chisel to change it...) you decided on when you started MotM.

Since you're so serious about this being a non-debatable topic, I highly recommend that people be strongly encouraged to submit quite a bit more than the minimum.

Rant end.

I'm glad that this event is starting up, thanks for organizing it.

Hugs and kisses, Jupiter.

Edited by Jupiter, 19 March 2010 - 02:52 PM.

[Nathaniel]

All right guys, lets calm down here. No need to lose it. There is a double-edged sword to the issue. It's a struggle between there not being enough submissions versus what people define as big enough for a map. Besides, it's only a contest. I agree with your rules Migokalle, and I think you have a point on that. However, I think your tone was probably misunderstood. The "I don't care" could be misinterpreted as being overly aggressive and unpleasant, thus probably why Jupiter reacted with his tone. A little more tact can avoid that. Even so, Jupiter, you need to pay attention to your tone regardless. But overall, lets not take these things too seriously, otherwise a good thing is no longer a good thing. Feedback can be helpful, but it is never a guarantee of change.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

All right guys, lets calm down here. No need to lose it. There is a double-edged sword to the issue. It's a struggle between there not being enough submissions versus what people define as big enough for a map. Besides, it's only a contest. I agree with your rules Migokalle, and I think you have a point on that. However, I think your tone was probably misunderstood. The "I don't care" could be misinterpreted as being overly aggressive and unpleasant, thus probably why Jupiter reacted with his tone. A little more tact can avoid that. Even so, Jupiter, you need to pay attention to your tone regardless. But overall, lets not take these things too seriously, otherwise a good thing is no longer a good thing. Feedback can be helpful, but it is never a guarantee of change.

Oh, I didn't intend to sound angry. Seriously, I was just trying to make my point. I'm just saying how it is, and it's not going to change. It's that simple. I'm not saying that people should submit a four screen map, but it's a minimum. If anyone really want to make a big fuzz out of that, they can keep it between themselves. I don't see any reason to go on about how it's a bad idea. I mean, why? It's like if you're going to sell your used PS2, and you're willing to part with it for 10 bucks, but you would much more prefer to have it sold for a little more.

Jupiter, I'm sorry if I offended you. If I sounded anything else than completely calm, though maybe a little set in one train of thought, my sole intention was to make it clear that this is a "rule" that isn't going to be changed. I don't think we've ever had a four-screen submission, but it was decided very early on that the minimum requirements should be a little low, cause it is time-consuming to make a full map, and there's bound to be some months where people don't have anything to show.

That said Jupiter, I completely agree with the fact that four screens isn't a lot. I wouldn't go as far and say that it isn't a map, but you're right, such a small "screenshot" can't offer as much as a larger map can, and that's a fact. I say look at it this way: If you see a map that's so small that it really bothers you, vote for another one. That's the idea of MotM. You vote for your favorite map, and if size is your thing, I see that as a valid reason to chose something else over it, unless it really has something special or unique to provide the viewer.

Again, I honestly did not intend on sounding arrogant and tactless. I'm going to go as far and blame that on the fact that my first language of choice is Norwegian, even though I'd say that I'm pretty well-learned in English too. I'm still not perfect however, but I'd appreciate it if anyone ever feels that I'm being a little too much on the offensive, that they'd talk to me about it, and ask me if that's really what I meant, unless it's painfully obvious. I'm really sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that, not only to you, but to anyone who read my post and felt annoyed over it. Again, and I can't stress this enough, I didn't mean to do that at all.

(Guess I should start using smileys more? )

[Jupiter]

That said Jupiter, I completely agree with the fact that four screens isn't a lot. I wouldn't go as far and say that it isn't a map, but you're right, such a small "screenshot" can't offer as much as a larger map can, and that's a fact. I say look at it this way: If you see a map that's so small that it really bothers you, vote for another one. That's the idea of MotM. You vote for your favorite map, and if size is your thing, I see that as a valid reason to chose something else over it, unless it really has something special or unique to provide the viewer.

Again, I honestly did not intend on sounding arrogant and tactless. I'm going to go as far and blame that on the fact that my first language of choice is Norwegian, even though I'd say that I'm pretty well-learned in English too. I'm still not perfect however, but I'd appreciate it if anyone ever feels that I'm being a little too much on the offensive, that they'd talk to me about it, and ask me if that's really what I meant, unless it's painfully obvious. I'm really sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that, not only to you, but to anyone who read my post and felt annoyed over it. Again, and I can't stress this enough, I didn't mean to do that at all.

(Guess I should start using smileys more? )

First off, are you from Norway? I've been there, it's a glorious place! Was there in June when the sun doesn't set completely. I even learned a couple words, but can't even remember how to count to 10 now.

My tone, to be forthright, was intended to be snarky, sarcastic, and challenging in the utmost degree. Partly as a response to the "I don't care" and the "non-debatable". Partly to rattle the cage, and get some attention on what I think is an important point on the map size issue...I think I've made it clear that I probably won't vote for any 4 screen "maps" , but the voting isn't really important to me. I think on all of the site events, the picking of a winner is really secondary. The most important thing, imo, is that these events promote and teach good quest craftsmanship (that, and just that they are fun). I come to this site for fun, resources, and to learn. I'm still new to this, and I can tell you that looking at other people's screenshots and maps--not least of all yours Migolike --in the archives of these contests has been really helpful in teaching me about good quest design. To that end, for all the specific reasons I articulated in the third paragraph of my screed, it is really beneficial to me, and I think the whole craft of quest-making, that maps show people how to put together a world, how to design a portion of a game, and encourage people to do a good job of that.

I get the rationale for keeping the submission minimum small, and as there aren't any submissions to date at the minimum the the rule doesn't seem to be guiding people anyway, so it is a bit unnecessary on my part to be belaboring the point. Except to communicate that I think the spirit of this contest should be different in kind from SotW, not just different in degree.

Migo, I totally accept and understand your clarification that you were just trying to be definitive and let us know that this isn't going to change. I certainly could have been less personal, without sacrificing any assertiveness.

And again, far, far, far more than any chagrin I have at the low minimum size, I am really very grateful that you are taking the time to organize this and am excited that you have brought it back.

I'm looking forward to next month's contest...hopefully I'll get at least one vote , but I'm not expecting to. Nonetheless, I know I'll get some helpful feedback. And that's only possible because you're administering this. Thank you.

Edited by Jupiter, 19 March 2010 - 02:51 PM.

[Geoffrey]

Personally, I think the 2x2 rule is a good thing...it makes people feel that they don't need to make it colossal. Plus, I think the smallest map yet is the 7 screen one that I just submitted, so we don't really need to make a big deal out of it.