61 replies to this topic

[Marco]

Whats your thoughts?

I feel being spiritual after gaining the basic intelligence in life is more important. The intellectual mind can only go so far. However, a spiritual mind may manifest meaning beyond what is physical. If I see an apple, I may see it in science as a food source, near inanimate object, delicious and symbol of a company. Yet, from a greater than life standpoint, I see it as a bounty, a gift from the universe who's life duty was to provide me with fuel to go onward in life and spread love. YES, I do see spirituality just being intelligence through extra meaning in life. But I honestly feel there is much much more to it. In general, I prefer to remain a soul than a mind in my viewpoint of life. Plus, spiritual people live longer because of the wonders it may do upon one's entity.

[Evan20000]

I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive. Intelligence and Spirituality can easily go hand in hand.

[Marco]

Just as I stated. But, there are differentiating lines. Would you choose to read a science book or a Bible?

[Moosh]

Being a scientific minded...bear...I view intellect over spirituality. Facts don't get us into wars and crusades, only faith.

Oh yeah, there should probably be some sort of disclaimer on this topic like

Warning: Loaded Topic
Turn back ye of little maturity

Edit: Since I have nothing relevant to add to the thread, I'm just going to leave this here:

Edited by Moosh, 06 June 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[Evan20000]

Just as I stated. But, there are differentiating lines. Would you choose to read a science book or a Bible?

That's an unfair question due to the vagueness of "science book". =\

But given the way you put it, I'd certainly take a science book over a bible any day.

[Russ]

Facts don't get us into wars and crusades, only faith.

Yeah, facts only get us nuclear wars. Nowhere near as cool as a crusade. ... Er, what I meant to say is...

I don't see why they're exclusive. Even with Marco's example, why can't I read a science book and the Bible? The world doesn't have to be black and white. I look at stuff, and I see the spiritual and intellectual side to it. For example, let's say there's a tree. Spiritually, I see a beautiful organism God has created, and I'm awed. Intellectually, I see an orchestra of cells, working together to a greater goal, the cells themselves more complex than anything else I can think of, and once again, I'm awed. Two sides of the same coin.

[The Satellite]

There are other ways to extend your life besides being spiritual, but I digress.

A bit of spirituality never hurt anyone, but it's not for everyone. It'd give you interesting and unique outlooks on life, and definitely help deviate from the norm a bit, but it's not necessary. I can be spiritual, but most of the time I take things at face value.

[Evan20000]

Even though I'm not religious, I find it fascinating to look at how other people view the world. Having a perspective beyond your immediate one is truly a great thing.

[Moosh]

Yeah, facts only get us nuclear wars. Nowhere near as cool as a crusade. ... Er, what I meant to say is...

Science provided the tools, not the conflict. A gun manufacturer isn't held responsible for a murder committed with a gun he made, is he? Of course not. A gun can be used both to kill and defend. The same goes for nuclear weapons. The only reason we use the tools we're given to a violent end is our selfish faith based ideals. I'm fine with religion. It's not something we can ever change. I'd just rather not be a part of it.

[Russ]

Science provided the tools, not the conflict. A gun manufacturer isn't held responsible for a murder committed with a gun he made, is he? Of course not. A gun can be used both to kill and defend. The same goes for nuclear weapons. The only reason we use the tools we're given to a violent end is our selfish faith based ideals. I'm fine with religion. It's not something we can ever change. I'd just rather not be a part of it.

Yeah, to clarify, that was a bit of a bad joke. Probably shoulda used " " to clarify that. Although, pardon me for getting a bit philosophical here (or is that the whole point of this thread?), but I do wanna address part of that post.

The only reason we use the tools we're given to a violent end is our selfish faith based ideals.

This has got me thinking. Is it fair to say that weapons are only used in selfish acts based on faith? Not something I wanna elaborate on here, for risk of pulling the thread off topic, but it might be something worth making another thread about.

[ShadowTiger]

There are sooooooo many ways to think about and discuss this topic. I'm sure they do meet up somewhere in a way that makes sufficient meaningful sense, but in order to traverse the paths properly any destination you can arrive at properly is a very, very long way away. Quite frankly I just don't think we have that kind of time!


Also, what kind of spirituality are we referring to? Could it be said that there is a certain innate variety of spirituality related to the sanctity of the formation of the known universe within its current state of scientific awareness without having to touch anything that science hasn't yet been able to conquer in its entirety?

For example, whereas the caveman would see an apple as a food source and very little more, we could happily see it for the molecular bonds that its core materials have formed which enable it to have the eventual property of "Apple." It eventually leads to understanding the difference between coal and a diamond. Scientific spirituality involved the understanding of our physical world in a way that transcends immediate practicality and journeys into their origins as matter, the building blocks of nigh everything, and how we all have the same basic building blocks within us all. We are stars and planets themselves! That's pretty amazing if you ask me.

--------------------------------

But as amazing as the here and now is, there does come a time when we have to ask ourselves "Why are we here?" I still don't quite trust religion to answer that question because of all of the different religions out there, and there are plenty of paths of spirituality that seem to be more like people throwing themselves out there asking you to buy their book to find out what color hat the magical angel they channeled was wearing. (Spoiler: They don't wear hats. I just saved you $16.99 and a trip to Barnes & Noble)

So, if you want to quantify intellect as the spirituality of the material world, that's fine. You could also say that it takes a certain kind of intellect to care enough to acquire a worldly spirituality. Your intellect can design the electron microscope, but your worldly spirituality makes you care enough to observe the natural world after you build it.

[NoeL]

This has got me thinking. Is it fair to say that weapons are only used in selfish acts based on faith? Not something I wanna elaborate on here, for risk of pulling the thread off topic, but it might be something worth making another thread about.

Briefly, no. Violence can be a rational solution, though personally not one I'd hastily advocate.


Regarding the OP, how are you defining "spirituality"? It's such a vague, ambiguous word, that usually carries no specific meaning. Until you clarify that, I can't answer whether or not it's more important than intellect.

[Marco]

Meh. You're all big boys, start addressing all aspects and not be looking for something specific out of someone. And I didnt want to make this a true debate thread, rather, a discussion to tackle all sides of this.

[Hergiswi]

I don't see why they're exclusive. Even with Marco's example, why can't I read a science book and the Bible? The world doesn't have to be black and white. I look at stuff, and I see the spiritual and intellectual side to it. For example, let's say there's a tree. Spiritually, I see a beautiful organism God has created, and I'm awed. Intellectually, I see an orchestra of cells, working together to a greater goal, the cells themselves more complex than anything else I can think of, and once again, I'm awed. Two sides of the same coin.

I think this pretty much hit the nail on the head.

One of my favorite things to do (inside my own head, of course) is simply ask "why did something happen?" It's really easy for humans to link events together and come up with a logical chain of events, so sometimes I'll do that just for my own entertainment. Even something as simple as almost dropping a plate of food, you can ask yourself "was I supposed to gain something by almost dropping this and then catching it really quickly?"

It makes sense in my head, anyway.

[NoeL]

Meh. You're all big boys, start addressing all aspects and not be looking for something specific out of someone. And I didnt want to make this a true debate thread, rather, a discussion to tackle all sides of this.

Well I can't tackle all sides of this if I don't understand what one of those sides is.

I guess I can piece a few quotes together and try to understand what you mean:

I see [an apple] as a bounty, a gift from the universe who's life duty was to provide me with fuel to go onward in life and spread love

Would you choose to read a science book or a Bible?(implying reading one will give you intellect, the other spirituality? I don't get it)

For example, let's say there's a tree. Spiritually, I see a beautiful organism God has created, and I'm awed. Intellectually, I see an orchestra of cells, working together to a greater goal, the cells themselves more complex than anything else I can think of, and once again, I'm awed.

What I gather from that, is that "intellect" pertains to knowledge about the universe and its functions, and "spirituality" pertains to an anthropomorphisation of the universe and personal sense of entitlement to it. For example, "intellectually" the sun is a giant fusion reaction that radiates light an energy, with balls of gas and rock caught in its gravitational field being subjected to that radiation. "Spiritually" the sun "gives us" light and warmth so we can continue to live.

Based on that understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) I'd have to say intellect is superior - for me at least. Not only are observable facts more awesome and puzzling than the imaginations of "spiritual" people could ever be (as they say, truth is stranger than fiction), I just don't have the capacity to delude myself into thinking I'm a special snowflake. It actually comes off as incredibly arrogant to say the universe's "life duty" is to give you food. It's like a flea saying it's the dog's "life duty" to provide it food. It has no duty or obligation to you at all, you're just a parasite. Same goes for religious people that think the entirety of the vast, vast universe was made specifically for humans - one species of carbon-based life-form among trillions that live, or have lived, on an unremarkable rock orbiting an unremarkable star on the outer arm of an unremarkable spiral galaxy in an unremarkable corner of the universe. And not only that, he loves them, specifically. It just sounds absurd to think, in spite of those facts, "God made this pretty flower... for me!". Absurd and childish.

Edited by NoeL, 30 May 2012 - 10:38 PM.