18 replies to this topic

[Orithan]

 

An analysis on the dungeon design in the Oracle games, going into detail over the basic obstacles the games presents to the player in the dungeons; highlighting the roles that the Small Key, Dungeon Item, Obstacles and Boss Key play in shaping the dungeons' flow.

A very interesting watch and the concepts explained are very useful to understand for designing dungeons in Zelda Classic.

Edited by Orithan, 26 September 2016 - 06:45 PM.

[Moosh]

This was an interesting watch, thanks for sharing. I always thought the Shadow Temple was the weakest adult dungeon in Ocarina of Time to replay, but that diagram...Wow.

[Ben]

I've done some light research myself on Zelda dungeoneering mostly to get an aesthetic/progressive sense of Link to the Past dungeons for Quest 744, but this goes way more in-depth than anything I did. Pretty interesting how each game/dungeon differs.

[Eddy]

That's a really cool way to analyse dungeon progression. I honestly never knew the Shadow Temple was that straightforward after looking at that graph lol

 

Either way, it's cool to see how complex these dungeons really are when looking at these graphs. I was pleasantly surprised by some of them shown in the video.

[Nicholas Steel]

That was a good video. Playlist of videos is here: https://www.youtube....hdWhsNsYY3NA5B2

Edited by Nicholas Steel, 27 September 2016 - 09:56 AM.

[Anthus]

Well, looks like this morning is shot, cause I'm watching ALL OF THESE.

 

Seriously though, this is interesting stuff. I really like the flow charts, and that is a good way to visualize dungeons. I might actually try to make some similar charts for my own dungeons. At the very least, you can see if the natural route makes sense before making a bunch of screens.

[TheLegend_njf]

Some of this is exactly what I learned to improve my dungeon design from following quests like Isle of Rebirth, Forbidden City, and many of Moosh's quests. Isle of Rebirth may appear complex, but it's more or less the same as you see here, except with just much more content and many more twists and turns. I sum up an isle of rebirth dungeon like this:

 

- Find 5 keys.

- Open locked doors.

- Unlock shortcuts connecting the dungeon together.

- Use a switch to access some new area from another area. (Essentially a glorified key)

- Get a couple more keys.

- Unlock more doors.

- Unlock more shortcuts.

- Use a switch to access some new area from another area. (glorified key)

- Get dungeon item.

- Unlock new areas with dungeon item.

- Unlock more shortcuts that connect the dungeon together.

- Find 2 or 3 more keys.

- Unlock more doors.

- Get boss key.

- Find 2 or 3 more keys.

- Press some switch or do something that unlocks path to boss door. (glorified key)

- Unlock doors leading to boss door.

- Unlock boss door, fight boss.

 

Now I'm pretty sure I made Evan's design sound much more complicated than what it actually is. I'm just exaggerating for the sake of LOLs, but it goes to show that this video sums up some very helpful advice in dungeon creation. 

 

Forbidden City is less complex. However, it essentially also takes on the same formula, except you technically get two dungeon items which extends the dungeon's length and complexity as the songs do play a part of solving dungeons and thus also become glorified keys.

 

Bottom line, if you see dungeon design as a set of complex glorified keys, you can really create a lot of complexity in your dungeons. Just try not to get too carried away with it. (EX: Pushing this grave causes huge water fall to flood dungeon, and causing lava to fall on water turns it to stone, melting a small pool of lava inside that stone creates heat that you can use a feather to rise up, and use lens of truth while rising up spots dungeon secrets, and each secret is opened by 4 elemental keys that are earned by using 4 elemental items on stone tablets, you earn keys by answering complex questions and... AUGH!! )

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 27 September 2016 - 11:40 AM.

[Norzan]

I knew Shadow Temple sucked but yeesh, it's worse than i thought. Then again, i really don't like OoT dungeons. To me they are some of the worst in the series.

 

 

Really interesting video though. Definitely subscribed to him.

[MarinaraSauce]

This should definitely be helpful to me, as I've always had quite a bit of difficulty designing dungeons. I also watched the rest of these videos and subscribed to the guy, he has a lot of good stuff on game design.

[HeroOfFire]

Seeing official designs converted into an easy to check flowchart is quite interesting. I think I've tried to do that kind of design all in my head before, I should start making flowcharts to make sure my dungeons have good flow. Or in the case of SOME dungeons, possible when a key item randomly appears within.

 

There are 2 additional situations that would apply to a lot of Zelda Classic quests.

 

1 - Having multiple key items. Unless I have forgotten something, Zelda 1 is the only time 2 items would appear in a dungeon, and maybe 2nd Quest level 8 had something of an intended design with where the Wand and Magic Key were located (Wand really helps when Red Bubbles take you Sword away).

 

2 - Not being able to complete a dungeon in a single visit. Examples I can think of includes basically all of the Outlands Hack, and that one time where the Bomb Bag was in Level 2 that was needed to finish Level 1 but the Boomerang early in Level 1 was needed to reach Level 2. Did anyone even like that?

 

That said, I think these flowcharts are a good guideline. Something pointed out recently is this "LAW" where keys are "SACRED" and you get the exact number required. You never seem to have an extra key that is used for an optional room. I could see using a flowchart to see where such extra rooms could be added to make the dungeon flow a little more interesting without breaking anything.

[TheLegend_njf]

This will indeed be helpful for creating dungeon blueprints. Never before now have I considered actually blueprinting my dungeons. I will however now start doing so as this to me is a great idea to make 1st draft blueprints.

 

This prevents me from designing on the fly where I run the risk attempting to design a quality dungeon on a poor foundation. Danger Candy for example is one of those dungeons that turned out well but has apparent flaws due to it's entire foundation being wonky. I could use what I learn here to prevent those mistakes. Don't get me wrong though, Danger Candy wasn't badly designed, but it could have had a better foundation.

[Soma C.]

Ironic that I see this now.  I just watched this video yesterday, along with the rest of the Boss Keys series to date.  Very informative and insightful!  Looking forward to future vids! 

[CyberGamer1539]

1 - Having multiple key items. Unless I have forgotten something, Zelda 1 is the only time 2 items would appear in a dungeon, and maybe 2nd Quest level 8 had something of an intended design with where the Wand and Magic Key were located (Wand really helps when Red Bubbles take you Sword away).

Spirit Temple had the Silver Gauntlets and the Mirror Shield.

[Anthus]

Spirit Temple had the Silver Gauntlets and the Mirror Shield.

MM's stone tower also had light arrows, and the giant's mask. If you count the fairy items, there's three here, and two in all the other dungeons.

[CyberGamer1539]

MM's stone tower also had light arrows, and the giant's mask. If you count the fairy items, there's three here, and two in all the other dungeons.

Eh, I wouldn't count the Stray Fairy Items, as they're technically not found within the dungeons themselves.