48 replies to this topic

[Bagu]

 

Also making this Nintendo proof is an even better idea...  I've always feared them taking ZC.com or PZC.net down....

...this should be #1, on the to do list (IMO)

[NoeL]

...this should be #1, on the to do list (IMO)

Doesn't that kill the identity of Zelda Classic? Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the reasons why you'd do that, but I think it misses the forest from the trees. Loses sight of the big picture. ZC's primary appeal is a Zelda fangame engine - that's what brought users to the platform. Yes, many creators have branched out from that, but that was the hook that brought them in. Strip out Zelda and you lose that hook. You also then have to contend with other Zelda-like engines, and more generic game engines. ZC's presence is already pretty small, and axing Zelda will only shrink it further (imo).

[Timelord]

I want to add that the numbering scheme was not properly utilized in the past. It is being worked on for future updates.

Yes, it does seem stale that when you see ZC that it is still in version 2.x when ideally through all of the features and updates done especially in 2.x+ that it should be closer to double digits.

 
I assure you, that this is false.
 
 

ZC Version Semantics:
 
[A].[BBB].[CCC]-[state]-[subversion]-[notation]
 |    |     |      |
 |    |     |      |
 >----+-----+------+--------{ The base library for the engine, where:
      |     |      |            1 == Allegro 3
      |     |      |            2 == Allegro 4
      |     |      |            3 == Allegro Legacy + Allegro 5
      |     |      |            4 == New Engine in AG5 (Rewrite; legacy quest compatibility via blue/yellow box)
      >-----+------+-------------{ Feature Set, based on percent of changes from previous release
            |      |                    10 == NEW BASE
            |      |                    11 == NEW FEATURESET, REIMPLEMENTATION
            |      |                    11 == NEW FEATURESET, REIMPLEMENTATION
            |      |
            |      |
            >------+-------------------{ Patch Subversion
                   |
                   |
                   >--------------------------{ Alpha, Beta, Gamma, or Release
                                                [subversion] == state revision; e.g. Alpha-2, Beta-16, Gamma-1, Release 1.
                                                [notation] == special notes for a build, e.g. Alpha-1-Fix-Dungeons
 
A full formal version might be: '2.60.2-Beta-2-Fix-Link'.
 

Technically, the present builds should have been 3.0 as soon as Allegro Legacy was implemented.

Further, if you are curious, the future plan for years was as follows, (block diagram and above info have been included in all ZC releases since 2018 under ./docs):

Premise:
Allegro 5 is the main lib.
All Allegro 4 stuff is handled by Allegro Legacy, linked to AG5
CLassic Quests play in a background running process of ZC 3.xx (Legacy Environment)
on top of ZC4 (New Environment).
 
New quests run entirely on new environment.
 
No emulation is needed, nor do new quests need to maintain compatibility with
legacy quests, as the old software runs invisible over the new, with input and video
output being translated.
 
All old quests run in this 'Blue Box' module, running on top of 'Yellow Box', invisibly to the user. 
 
 
INPUT     VIDEO bitmap +-----------------> Display
-----     ------------------------
V         ^  Modern Audio Output +-------> System Audio Devices
V         ^ +---------+-----------      
V         ^ |         ^ 
V         ^ ^
V         ^ ^
+---------+-+<<<<<<<<<+-------------------------------
|           |         | Legacy Audio and RAM Bitmaps |
|  Allegro  |         ------+-------------------------
|     5     |               ^
|  Library  |       --------+---------      -------------
|           +<<<----+ Allegro Legacy +->**<-+ ALLEGRO 4 | * Linked via AL
|           |       ---------+---+----      -------------
-------------                |   ^
      ^                      |   ^
      |                      |   ^
      |                      |   |-----------------
      ^   Blue/Yellow Layer  |---+   RAM Bitmaps  |
      |   --------->>>>>>+   |   | Old Quest Data | 
      |   | Read Into*   V   |   ------------------
------+---+----      ----+---+---------
|  ZC Rerwite |      |  Zelda Classic |
|   Engine    |      |    ZQuest      |
|  Yellow Box |      |    Blue Box    |
------+----+---      ----+---+---------
      ^    ^  Read Into* V   ^
      ^    ^<<<<<<<<-----+   ^
-------------                ^    
|  New Type |              ^ 
-------------                ^
      ^                      ^
------+--------        ------+-----------
|  Quest Type |=====>>>+ OLD QUEST TYPE | 
---------------        ------------------   
  
*Old quest read into ZC4, loads classic ZC3 engine in the background.
This background layer pipes new input in
 

Edited by Timelord, 10 September 2023 - 09:10 AM.

[bigjoe]

Software is all about getting people addicted and exploiting them for money, so perhaps the new title screen should be an 8 bit picture of a hand holding out a pack of cigarettes.

 

EDIT: Why is it that the same five or six names, mostly purple, appear out of nowhere just about every time I post? What am I a pariah or something? chill.

Edited by BigJoe, 10 September 2023 - 03:55 PM.

[Hergiswi]

Software is all about getting people addicted and exploiting them for money, so perhaps the new title screen should be an 8 bit picture of a hand holding out a pack of cigarettes.

 

EDIT: Why is it that the same five or six names, mostly purple, appear out of nowhere just about every time I post? What am I a pariah or something? chill.

i think the staff are just watching this thread intensely since it blew up on discord

[Timelord]

Software is all about getting people addicted and exploiting them for money, so perhaps the new title screen should be an 8 bit picture of a hand holding out a pack of cigarettes.

 

EDIT: Why is it that the same five or six names, mostly purple, appear out of nowhere just about every time I post? What am I a pariah or something? chill.

 

LULZ. I might just do that for 1st April. Lv you mate. TY for making me laugh so hard I nearly shyte meself.

 

EDIT: Why is it that the same five or six names, mostly purple, appear out of nowhere just about every time I post? What am I a pariah or something? chill.

 

i think the staff are just watching this thread intensely since it blew up on discord

 

Narcissism and free balloons.

Edited by Timelord, 11 September 2023 - 12:02 PM.

[Hergiswi]

LULZ. I might just do that for 1st April. Lv you mate. TY for making me laugh so hard I nearly shyte meself.

 

 

Narcissism and free balloons.

where's my free balloon then huh, i want a pink one

[Timelord]

Doesn't that kill the identity of Zelda Classic? Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the reasons why you'd do that, but I think it misses the forest from the trees. Loses sight of the big picture. ZC's primary appeal is a Zelda fangame engine - that's what brought users to the platform. Yes, many creators have branched out from that, but that was the hook that brought them in. Strip out Zelda and you lose that hook. You also then have to contend with other Zelda-like engines, and more generic game engines. ZC's presence is already pretty small, and axing Zelda will only shrink it further (imo).

In theory, no.  You can simultaneously have both a brand identity of ZC that is unchanged and a new brand identity for an open model that appeals to a wider audience. The trick is balance,  and the key to the survival of this software is roping in new users.

where's my free balloon then huh, i want a pink one

 

I have a few pennies to spare if you are desperate for a pink balloon.

Edited by Timelord, 11 September 2023 - 12:06 PM.

[Twilight Knight]

Doesn't that kill the identity of Zelda Classic? Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the reasons why you'd do that, but I think it misses the forest from the trees. Loses sight of the big picture. ZC's primary appeal is a Zelda fangame engine - that's what brought users to the platform. Yes, many creators have branched out from that, but that was the hook that brought them in. Strip out Zelda and you lose that hook. You also then have to contend with other Zelda-like engines, and more generic game engines. ZC's presence is already pretty small, and axing Zelda will only shrink it further (imo).

I thought about the same, but I'm not so concerned about it. The program itself should be "detached" from Zelda, so Nintendo can't mess with that, but seeing our large database of existing quests + the base mechanics of the program, I think the tone will still be set that this is perfect for making your own Zelda fan game.

 

Also SEO plays a big part in this, and if some of the keywords are things like "Zelda fan game" or "Zelda game engine", we should still attract those interested in that. But surely Nintendo can't sue you for using some meta keywords like that on your website.

 

But you make a good point concerning other Zelda-esque game engines. I don't know any of those myself, but if those do exist we'd need some USPs for ZC to distinguish it and make it more appealing...

 

 

Anyway, I think the concern that we lose ZC all together because of Nintendo is greater than the concern that we won't attract new users. We aren't attracting many of them now anyway. Then perserving what we already have for as long as we can seems more important to me.

Edited by Twilight Knight, 12 September 2023 - 06:53 AM.

[Taco Chopper]

Anyway, I think the concern that we lose ZC all together because of Nintendo is greater than the concern that we won't attract new users. We aren't attracted many of them now anyway. Then perserving what we already have for as long as we can seems more important to me.

You've hit the nail on the head with this statement. The potential for growth is there, but is it worth the risk of putting a target on the community's back when Nintendo eventually comes knocking?

 

Whether it's a hypothetical situation or not is irrelevant, in my opinion. It's something we have to be very cautious of considering ZC's history.

[Twilight Knight]

You've hit the nail on the head with this statement. The potential for growth is there, but is it worth the risk of putting a target on the community's back when Nintendo eventually comes knocking?

 

Whether it's a hypothetical situation or not is irrelevant, in my opinion. It's something we have to be very cautious of considering ZC's history.

Also I think the potential for new users interested in making a (S)NES Zelda fan game isn't so great anyway. Now if we could recreate Tears of the Kingdom with ZC it'd be a different story. :-) 

[Taco Chopper]

Also I think the potential for new users interested in making a (S)NES Zelda fan game isn't so great anyway. Now if we could recreate Tears of the Kingdom with ZC it'd be a different story. :-) 

I think there's definitely a userbase who'd be interested in playing them - the r/truezelda boffins are always interested in finding more GB/2D Zelda hacks/fangames - but again, very different case to making something with your own hands.

[NoeL]

In theory, no.  You can simultaneously have both a brand identity of ZC that is unchanged and a new brand identity for an open model that appeals to a wider audience. The trick is balance,  and the key to the survival of this software is roping in new users.

 
I'm still not seeing it. How can ZC's identity be both "unchanged" AND "new"? ZC's identity is currently a Zelda fan-game engine (that can be used to make Zelda-likes). Yes it can do more, but that's not its identity. Strip out Zelda assets and it becomes a Zelda-like engine (that can be used to make Zelda fan-games). I don't see how the latter is more appealing. I don't have data, but I would assume more people would be interested in making Zelda fan-games than original Zelda-likes, based on brand recognition and ease-of-access using existing assets of existing characters/environments.
 

But you make a good point concerning other Zelda-esque game engines. I don't know any of those myself, but if those do exist we'd need some USPs for ZC to distinguish it and make it more appealing...

 
Super Dungeon Maker is probably the biggest one out now. Legend Maker and Quest Master are in development. There have been a couple of smaller ones pop up here and there too.

 

 

Anyway, I think the concern that we lose ZC all together because of Nintendo is greater than the concern that we won't attract new users. We aren't attracting many of them now anyway. Then perserving what we already have for as long as we can seems more important to me.

 

Like I said, I understand why you'd want to strip Zelda out of Zelda Classic. I don't even necessarily think that's the wrong direction to take. Where I differ a bit is on your last point: I don't think life support at any cost is the best option. ZC is ancient, and has an amazing legacy as a fan-game engine. If/when Nintendo pulls the trigger, ZC will go underground and will still be distributed illegally. It won't be lost, although PZC may be (which is the real danger imo). But PZC will go down regardless of whether or not ZC is made non-infringing, because 99% of the quests here use Nintendo's assets. We're likely to lose (legal) access to the Quest DB at some point. We could rebrand ZC, but we'd have to separate it from PZC anyway due to the aforementioned database.

 

Personally, I'm happy to ride this horse into the C&D sunset. Like I said: ZC is ancient, it's on its last legs anyway, and there's competition on the horizon that will do what people are proposing here in a newer, sleeker, sexier way. I question if the juice is worth the squeeze with the proposed overhaul.

[Taco Chopper]

How can ZC's identity be both "unchanged" AND "new"? ZC's identity is currently a Zelda fan-game engine (that can be used to make Zelda-likes). Yes it can do more, but that's not its identity. Strip out Zelda assets and it becomes a Zelda-like engine (that can be used to make Zelda fan-games). I don't see how the latter is more appealing.

You can't, the suggestion that it can be both is paradoxical at best.
 

ZC is ancient, and has an amazing legacy as a fan-game engine. If/when Nintendo pulls the trigger, ZC will go underground and will still be distributed illegally. It won't be lost, although PZC may be (which is the real danger imo). But PZC will go down regardless of whether or not ZC is made non-infringing, because 99% of the quests here use Nintendo's assets.

I've echoed similar sentiment earlier on this in this very thread. A Zelda-less ZC is fine, but that comes at the risk of having the extensive history of the program's community wiped in a matter of moments. A shift like what's been proposed can't be with a program as old as ZC.
 

Personally, I'm happy to ride this horse into the C&D sunset. Like I said: ZC is ancient, it's on its last legs anyway, and there's competition on the horizon that will do what people are proposing here in a newer, sleeker, sexier way. I question if the juice is worth the squeeze with the proposed overhaul.

Everyone's been saying that ZC has been dying for years, but I'm not really seeing anything indicating that we've reached that stage yet. On the other hand, if the overhaul does happen...

[Timelord]

You can't, the suggestion that it can be both is paradoxical at best.
 

I've echoed similar sentiment earlier on this in this very thread. A Zelda-less ZC is fine, but that comes at the risk of having the extensive history of the program's community wiped in a matter of moments. A shift like what's been proposed can't be with a program as old as ZC.
 

Everyone's been saying that ZC has been dying for years, but I'm not really seeing anything indicating that we've reached that stage yet. On the other hand, if the overhaul does happen...

 

 

 
I'm still not seeing it. How can ZC's identity be both "unchanged" AND "new"? ZC's identity is currently a Zelda fan-game engine (that can be used to make Zelda-likes). Yes it can do more, but that's not its identity. Strip out Zelda assets and it becomes a Zelda-like engine (that can be used to make Zelda fan-games). I don't see how the latter is more appealing. I don't have data, but I would assume more people would be interested in making Zelda fan-games than original Zelda-likes, based on brand recognition and ease-of-access using existing assets of existing characters/environments.
 

 
Super Dungeon Maker is probably the biggest one out now. Legend Maker and Quest Master are in development. There have been a couple of smaller ones pop up here and there too.

 

 

 

Like I said, I understand why you'd want to strip Zelda out of Zelda Classic. I don't even necessarily think that's the wrong direction to take. Where I differ a bit is on your last point: I don't think life support at any cost is the best option. ZC is ancient, and has an amazing legacy as a fan-game engine. If/when Nintendo pulls the trigger, ZC will go underground and will still be distributed illegally. It won't be lost, although PZC may be (which is the real danger imo). But PZC will go down regardless of whether or not ZC is made non-infringing, because 99% of the quests here use Nintendo's assets. We're likely to lose (legal) access to the Quest DB at some point. We could rebrand ZC, but we'd have to separate it from PZC anyway due to the aforementioned database.

 

Personally, I'm happy to ride this horse into the C&D sunset. Like I said: ZC is ancient, it's on its last legs anyway, and there's competition on the horizon that will do what people are proposing here in a newer, sleeker, sexier way. I question if the juice is worth the squeeze with the proposed overhaul.

 

Assuming that anyone is still following my plan, ZC would have a module that retained all of the historic quests, assets and stuff like the title screens and intros, called the Classic Module, which would be a separate download from the core engine, and a new module with original assets that does not infringe bundled with it. Naturally, being uninvolved for over two years I have no clue if they followed through with my plan, or its execution. I don't know why they would haven't done that, but I started moving infringing IP out of the engine and into a plug and play format over four years ago.