107 replies to this topic

[Geoffrey]

My request, as the starter of this topic, is to have this moved to Mature Discussion or to be closed.

It is good that it is where it is. I have since contacted DashSim with questions regarding the topic at hand and now have a greater understanding of it, something which would not have otherwise happened.

Essentially, I thank you for posting it here.

[DashSim]

Yeah, if my opinion means anything in this matter, I'd really rather it not be moved. Part of what makes these sorts of discussions rewarding for me is having an audience to help inform. I wouldn't want it to be limited to just the couple people who have access to the Mature forum.

Heated as these debates might become at times, I don't think I ever saw anything that was out of line. It's not like we're arguing about which Zelda game we think is best - it's a very important thing we're discussing, and that's almost always worthwhile, even if it gets a little intense.

[Schwa]

The article warmed my heart. It was a fascinating read, and it said a lot of things I agree strongly with that feels very relieving to see written down and quoted by experts and such.

I wouldn't say I'm downright trans but I do struggle sometimes with the fact that I am male instead of female, for a number of reasons, and I have no qualms about saying that in the open. That's why this article appeals to me very much.

Glad I could say this before the topic was moved/closed

[Fabbrizio]

The article warmed my heart. It was a fascinating read, and it said a lot of things I agree strongly with that feels very relieving to see written down and quoted by experts and such.

I wouldn't say I'm downright trans but I do struggle sometimes with the fact that I am male instead of female, for a number of reasons, and I have no qualms about saying that in the open. That's why this article appeals to me very much.

Glad I could say this before the topic was moved/closed

Are you me?

In all honesty, this article was the start of a long chain of events for me that actually caused me to seriously question my internal gender. I've reached the point where I'm 100% sure I identify myself as female, but I won't take any action. At the most, I'll go clean shaven, let my hair grow out and clean it up a bit, but...Chances are I'll never get HRT or SRS (And I'm not saying that in the same way Beefster says he'll never have something as his avatar).

And I'd be very tomboyish - I'd just wear what I've always worn. Considering myself a girl would be all that would matter.

Edited by DavidReinold, 11 January 2012 - 08:15 AM.

[Sheik]

I won't stop you if you want to be gay or transsexual,

You don't get any of it. It's not a question of concious descisions. Just like you happen to be who you are other people happen to be who they are.
But if you are going to argue that people do have concious descision over their behavior at least* ("you may be gay but must not act on it") then I have a question for you: Would you rather that someone permanently denied who they are and hated themselves for their desires (that they have no control over what so ever) for the sake of some sentences in the holy book of your religion or would you rather people accept themselves and embrace who they are albeit not being conform with the teachings of your religious book?

*which they don't as many behviors are determined by a number of factors that are beyond concious control

and I will do my best to look past it when in a nonreligious context.

In all seriousness: Who do you think you are to put other humans under your mercy? Are the gays and trans people supposed to be thankful to you for that or why do you mention it? How would you feel if someone told you that they "will do the best to look past your heterosexuality if..."? Being heterosexual does not make you a better person, my friend.

Now, excuse me if I sounded somewhat offending. I don't have anything against you personally but some of these opinons/statements are, while relatively liberal for a Christian, a disgrace to the concept of human dignity.

Edited by Yoshimi, 11 January 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[Beefster]

Homosexuality is against my religion. I'm tolerant, but once again, it's a complicated issue. I recognize that it isn't a conscious choice to be gay, although you don't have to act on it. In a sense, it's God's lifelong trial for you if you're gay. Everyone gets trials, and they're different for everybody.

About looking past it: It's a complicated issue for me. In a religious context, it must be addressed. Keep in mind that I was raised in an environment where "gay" was very weird, so I still have some of those biases ingrained.

I love gays as people even though I don't love their actions. Jesus had this same attitude with sinners in general.

DR: maybe I don't understand this idea of an "internal gender," but if you're a tomboyish girl on the inside, doesn't that just make you male?

As far as I'm concerned, the only gender role for women- childhood nurture. It's ingrained in females of all species.
There is also a gender role for men, but It's specific to my religion and it isn't appropriate to talk about in this context.

[Moosh]

As far as I'm concerned, the only gender role for women- childhood nurture. It's ingrained in females of all species.

I'm sure you didn't mean to sound this way, but if I'm reading your statement correctly, that's extremely sexist. Women and men really aren't all that different asside from physical stuff in my honest opinion. At the very least it's a commonly shared opinion that women are socially equal to men and deserve all the same opportunities in life.

[Russ]

Women and men really aren't all that different asside from physical stuff in my honest opinion. At the very least it's a commonly shared opinion that women are socially equal to men and deserve all the same opportunities in life.

While I don't go as far as Beefster here, I do have to disagree with you here as woman and men aren't the same, physical differences aside. In general (not always the case, but just in general), men tend to act on logic, whereas women act on emotion. That's why, in general, women are better at raising children than men: They're better at emotions, and they now to how to handle situations that call for them better than men. On the same token, men are often better suited for things women aren't, being able to make rational decisions with less influence from emotion.

I'm not trying to be sexist; I'm just pointing out what I've seen. The vast majority of women I know quickly spring to action based on emotion before thinking the situation out logically, which makes them better suited to tasks that require emotional understand than men. That's not to say all women are like that, and it's certainly not to say some women are born business masters while some men were made to raise children. It's just a general pattern.

Of course, going back to Poke's quote, I can definitely agree that men and women are socially equal and deserve the same opportunities in life. And it seems to me that they have equal opportunities; I haven't seen any discrimination against women as long as I can remember.

[Fabbrizio]

DR: maybe I don't understand this idea of an "internal gender," but if you're a tomboyish girl on the inside, doesn't that just make you male?

One thing I find odd about gender boundaries is how one-way they are. I've noticed that girls can do very boyish things without any social repercussions. They can wear men's clothing, (and often do) work with cars, play sports, and plenty of other "manly" things.

Yet, when men do girly things like picking flowers, baking cakes, wearing skirts, and watching shows about ponies, many people automatically assume that they're gay. It's ridiculous. (Not saying I would wear a skirt though, but that's more due to functional reasons.) At least it's acceptable for men to wear pink now.
[...]
Girl who likes boyish things == Tomboy

Thank you, Beefster! You have just shown the class an excellent example of self-contradiction! But I should add...

Tomboy =/= FtM trans

Being tomboyish wouldn't reverse the process - gender identity goes much deeper than simply how you express yourself. It's your 'self-image'. It's who you see when you close your eyes and picture yourself. It's how you feel when you try to identify with one gender or the other. Another factor:

That's why, in general, women are better at raising children than men: They're better at emotions, and they now to how to handle situations that call for them better than men. On the same token, men are often better suited for things women aren't, being able to make rational decisions with less influence from emotion.

Something like this would be an excellent red flag to someone questioning their internal gender - I tend to make almost ALL my decisions based on emotions. Of course, that's not my only tip-off, and in fact I hadn't even considered it until Russ pointed it out (thank you, Russ, I went from being 95% sure to 98% sure that I am Kira transgender), but THIS is the sort of thing you're looking for on this issue.

In the end, though, it's what you feel. And even though I watch Yu Yu Hakusho and play Half-Life, that's not a relevant argument when considering internal gender.

Getting a warm fuzzy feeling when you ask people on an IRC you frequent to refer to you as female, and to call you by a female name - that's relevant.

Homosexuality is against my religion. I'm tolerant, but once again, it's a complicated issue. I recognize that it isn't a conscious choice to be gay, although you don't have to act on it. In a sense, it's God's lifelong trial for you if you're gay. Everyone gets trials, and they're different for everybody.

About looking past it: It's a complicated issue for me. In a religious context, it must be addressed. Keep in mind that I was raised in an environment where "gay" was very weird, so I still have some of those biases ingrained.

Colorado in the 90s sounds like it was in a completely different universe. For most people who grew up in the 90s, the message of 'be yourself' is ALL YOU WERE EVER TAUGHT. I don't know about you, but I stick to that message, and I encourage others to.

Now, before I stop typing this, I must add that Yoshimi made an excellent point: pardon my French, people don't give a flying f*** what YOUR religion thinks of them. Your Religion is telling YOU not to act on homosexuality, not to tell others not to. Nobody's seeking your approval, and if you're going to take a condescending attitude to the matter and treat the gay community like children who don't know any better, they don't have to respect you either.

Edited by DavidReinold, 14 January 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[Sheik]

About looking past it: It's a complicated issue for me. In a religious context, it must be addressed. Keep in mind that I was raised in an environment where "gay" was very weird, so I still have some of those biases ingrained.

I was raised in a very Christian and homophobic enviroment myself. In fact, as I still live at my parent's home, I still live in that enviroment. But I for one can think for myself and don't buy everything I'm told whatever relationship I happen to have to the person that shares their opinion with me.
A central concept of Christianity is love. Your statements are soaking of intense hatred. Go figure. How about applying an ounce of empathy?

In general (not always the case, but just in general), men tend to act on logic, whereas women act on emotion. That's why, in general, women are better at raising children than men: They're better at emotions, and they now to how to handle situations that call for them better than men. On the same token, men are often better suited for things women aren't, being able to make rational decisions with less influence from emotion.

However, this has nothing to with biological gender but rather with social roles. Women are expected to be emotional and whatnot and thus they are (in the desire to identify with their role and be accepted as representatives of their role). The same applies for men being "logical" and acting all tough and whatnot. The genetic factor is laughably small.
You are to quick to jump from an observation that correlates with your hypothesis to an causal conclusion. Consider third variables (such as the "social role" one I introduced), too, if you want to draw a reliable conclusion.

Edited by Yoshimi, 13 January 2012 - 09:48 AM.

[NoeL]

Homosexuality is against my religion. I'm tolerant, but once again, it's a complicated issue. I recognize that it isn't a conscious choice to be gay, although you don't have to act on it. In a sense, it's God's lifelong trial for you if you're gay. Everyone gets trials, and they're different for everybody.

This really irks me. I hate people that use their religion as cover for discrimination, and I hate people that will blatantly admit they think God is being a total dick but support him none the less. The whole notion of "testing" is both absurd and disgusting, but that's for another topic. I feel a bit sick now

[Beefster]

@DR: thank you for clarifying.
And you're absolutely right that nobody has to follow my religion. I'm stating what I believe and that's where it ends.

And yup, I'm definitely male; I think with my penis.

I'm sure you didn't mean to sound this way, but if I'm reading your statement correctly, that's extremely sexist. Women and men really aren't all that different asside from physical stuff in my honest opinion. At the very least it's a commonly shared opinion that women are socially equal to men and deserve all the same opportunities in life.

I meant it's the only role that is "female only." I suppose it was ambiguous and seemingly sexist the way I worded it. Women are free to do anything else, but I don't think men will ever have the chance to experience childbirth.

I'm not the kind of person who slaps women, telling them to get back into the kitchen.

And actually, I was born in Arizona. I didn't move to Colorado until 1999.

*takes his foot out of his mouth*

*runs*

[Vinyl Scratch]

but I don't think men will ever have the chance to experience childbirth.

Oh really, now? You don't think science will eventually get to the point where they can give you working organs of a female and allow you to produce offspring?

Why not?

[Beefster]

If so, not within our lifetime. If not, it will likely be caused numerous complications, such as the fact that females only produce eggs once.

I realize I've hurt some people here. Just know that your responsibility is to do what you think is right, just as I do. It's not my place to judge and I really shouldn't be implying that I'm superior and everyone else is a terrible person. I acknowledge that it came out that way, and I never meant to offend anybody. I just have the awful tendency to put my foot in my mouth.

Also: Vaelstrom: since you don't like apologies, pretend this isn't targeted at you, because it isn't.

That said, I think this thread has run its course, and I request that it be closed. For real this time.

Edited by Beefster, 14 January 2012 - 02:13 AM.

[DashSim]

There's really not a huge difference between the brains of men and women. Obviously, there very much is a difference, which is why trans people exist and ultimately why this thread exists, but it's... not a particularly large one. Research constantly points ever more firmly towards, as Yoshimi said, differences of gender being largely socially and culturally ingrained, not biologically inherent.

We tend to be quick to make assumptions and buy into stereotypes about gender. Imagine if we took the same approach to race, or ethnicity. But while we rightfully find that idea as applied to race offensive, it's generally acceptable in our culture to do the same with gender.

If you were to travel back 50 years, you'd find people holding beliefs about gender that seems ridiculous now. There's a lot we believe today (women being emotional, men being stoic and countless other things). I'm sure that, to the people of 50 years into the future, much of this will seem just as antiquated.

If so, not within our lifetime.

Ah, definitely within our lifetime. I'm pretty certain that we will see the first trans women give birth. I wouldn't be surprised if it was as soon as within a decade or two.