Practice Dungeons
#16
Posted 10 October 2011 - 05:26 PM
...Here's the thing. Aside from the palette, I really wouldn't be able to distinguish one of your levels from the next. A and C use virtually identical sprite setups, for instance, and you pretty much reuse identical puzzles in different dungeons. And to be honest, you seem to be boxing in your screens for the sake of boxing them in, and not to make combat or navigation more difficult.
To me, these are sketches. There's some good ideas contained in them, but holistically the levels themselves are nothing special.
Now, how do we go about making these levels better? The easiest way, I think, would be to bring out at least one theme in each of the levels, to at least differentiate themselves from one another; right now, all the levels behave fairly similarly thematically and design-wise. Level A has the misdirection and all; Level B has spikes and wizzrobes, Level C has block-related puzzles, and Level D has hookshots and rafts. All of those have the potential to be really nice themes to play with, and could help make your levels really interesting. But while heavy usage of themes can makes for really nice levels, that's only part of the issue here.
I've outright quit playing several quests because I've had no idea of how to progress - not because of puzzles or whatnot, but because the levels began to ramble, branching out and meandering in a manner that gives no indication of progress or even . Thankfully your level design is not that bad, but you seem to be running into a different issue with your design; oftentimes, the way to go or the solution to a puzzle seems far to arbitrary. Sometimes this can't be avoided - with armoses, for example. However, most other times it's best to actually give some indication of the intended solution at least somewhere, especially if the solution is pretty much arbitrary (worst offender - that room with the 2x2 thing for the blocks, in addition to the four 1x1 markers. I have no idea on how to actually complete the puzzle, given how arbitrary the blocks appearing seems to be). However, I'm most aggravated about the multiple rooms that outright lock you in - the one room with the whistle in A, the 'leave money or life' guy in (C?) - because they're both annoying and pointless, given how easy it is to Quit -> Continue out of them. Please either get rid of them or rework them so that they're not that silly.
Lastly, if you're going to be a jerk, at least make it so that it doesn't require a long and fairly pointless trek to get hit by a blue bubble or regain a magic shield (which you can't even do, given the inclusive nature of the dungeon).
So yeah. These are just eh, and are really nothing special.
[So why didn't I mention much about Level D? It was glitchy]
#17
Posted 10 October 2011 - 05:54 PM
Also how is Level D glitchy?
#18
Posted 10 October 2011 - 06:44 PM
You say that part of the puzzle of that room is figuring out what order to push the blocks in. I'll grant you that. However, the fact that in order to reset the puzzle you have to redo the block-pushing in the room south is the deal-breaker here. It'd be padding even without needing to redo it each time you mess up on the above screen, and honestly people just aren't going to bother with that unless there's some other factor pushing them forwards.
Also; for that aforementioned 'evil trap' of yours... at least give some indication that the boomerang can actually do that, or make it so that you aren't boxed in with the whistle. As it is now, there's no indication that the boomerang actually has that ability.
Also also; being a jerk has nothing to do with weaving difficulty. What you did there was just make more work - more useless work - for the player, which is again hardly in your best interests in terms of keeping players interested.
#19
Posted 10 October 2011 - 07:01 PM
#20
Posted 10 October 2011 - 10:58 PM
Edited by Cukeman, 15 October 2011 - 04:21 AM.
#21
Posted 10 October 2011 - 11:59 PM
#22
Posted 11 October 2011 - 07:19 AM
#23
Posted 11 October 2011 - 09:33 AM
I can't agree with this. It's like saying Nintendo's pick a chest puzzles are an epic fail because people
can use save states on an emulator. I'm not even going to password my quest. If people want to break
the game that's not my fault. Nothing personal. I just don't think that is a design flaw. It's someone
who doesn't want to enjoy the game as is.
I can't wait to try out these dungeons BB
I'll admit that the leaving money or life room isn't really the best thing to be com...
No, actually, I'll rescind that. Here it's being used strictly as a hint room in which you're forced to give up a heart container, unless you've somehow managed to pick up the key beforehand or acquired 50 rupees along the way. I don't see a justifiable reason for doing this - at least most other incarnations of this actually use it so that there is something to gain (usually passage to the rest of the dungeon) from paying up. Here? No, which makes just Quit -> Continuing (hardly the same thing as a savestate, given that you could actually do this in the original LoZ, albeit with a death tacked onto your total) a much more attractive option. Maybe if the hint was given in a separate room which was unlocked by paying (or the key needed to progress was actually given by paying up) I wouldn't be so aggravated about this.
As for the whistle, you would have to reset anyway, given that there is no way out.
[...and by the way, I would consider those less puzzles and more outright luck, save OoT's incarnation of it, where you could basically just use the Lens of Truth and outright cheat your way through it.]
Let it just be said that while I do like old-school games and a decent difficulty, I can't really stand most forms of old-school padding.
#24
Posted 11 October 2011 - 09:50 AM
#25
Posted 11 October 2011 - 02:41 PM
Edited by Imzogelmo, 11 October 2011 - 02:41 PM.
#26
Posted 11 October 2011 - 07:47 PM
Also, I'm working on another interior cave/dungeon hybrid and that will be the last one for a while, but who knows, I might surprise you guys with something else such as a boss demo.
Edited by blackbishop89, 11 October 2011 - 07:48 PM.
#27
Posted 11 October 2011 - 10:22 PM
D was a close second, but more for aesthetic reasons than cerebral ones.
A and B would be about equal in my estimation.
----
And yes, it's a Fokka, everybody's "favorite" evil bird knight of doom.
#28
Posted 12 October 2011 - 07:30 AM
#29
Posted 12 October 2011 - 12:24 PM
I don't really know. I guess the issue I have is that you're not being clever enough with your dungeon design? Although I didn't actually ever get very far in it (I gave up on Level 4 after not playing for a while), I really liked how HD:DX has dungeons that are absurdly labyrinthine and complex yet keep a sense of forward momentum going. I don't really have the feeling, sadly, that your dungeon design will pan out so nicely, if only because right now these are feeling less like a cohesive dungeon and a more like a progression of rooms arranged into a dungeon. I realize that you've previously said that you're working on the puzzles more in these rather than the dungeon design as a whole, but the most devilish and interesting puzzles (not to mention the ones that feel best when you've actually figured them out) are easily the ones that take the whole dungeon into account, weaving itself into a tangle and leaving you to tease out the correct way to get yourself through it.
...which I guess you can practice with these!
tldr; sure they're kinda fun, but I'd have more fun with these if the dungeon design as a whole was tighter.
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