43 replies to this topic

[Anarchy_Balsac]

Okay so there seems to be a lot of Hype behind this.  I personally do not understand the hype.  I do understand it has a lot of features, but does that alone make it a good product?

1. It can only make 2D Mario Levels

 

Obvious, I know, but an important point.  No matter what they have put into this thing, this is all it will ever be.  That is, a maker of 2D SMB style levels.  This does not make it bad, but to me, that's a rather bland thing to be making, no matter how many bells and whistles one uses.  It's not that one can't get creative and do neat things with it, but how many neat things can one really do with 2D SMB levels before the novelty wears off?  Sure, they may have added a little more into this than the rom hack community already has, but it's only a matter of time before THAT gets stale too. 

 

Some may say that the same could be said of Zelda Classic, but I would posit that with things like scripting, a variety of potential design styles (non-linear, story driven, etc.), an inventory system and enemy and item editors, it has far more potential than Mario Maker can ever hope to.  Some have said that ZC is "thinking small" compared to Mario Maker, but they never specify when pressed for answers as to how this is.

 

2. Console based creation games have less longevity than PC ones

 

For me this is the big one.  ZC has existed for over 10 years now, 10 years from now, it may still have a community, but Mario Maker will not.  Either Nintendo will decide not to pay for the servers to host the levels anymore, or the community will just move on when the NX is released.  Either way, it's not connected to a permanent network, and works with ONE machine.  Even if the NX is backwards compatible, will the console after that be? 

 

Sure, M$ doesn't like making windows backwards compatible, but gamers and modding communities have ways around that.  These exist for consoles too, but they are far more niche.

 

3. Time released secrets are, always were, and always will be a BAD idea

 

We can argue that Nintendo may be wrong for the right reasons here.  But we can not argue that they are not wrong.  I understand their argument, and yes, 9 days is not the end of the world.  But this sets a very bad precedent, and in my opinion, supporting it could lead to more games doing this in the future.

 

No, I don't approve of having to wait for the game to unlock itself, and I never will. 

 

4. The Amiibo paywall content doesn't help, either.

 

Amiibo have great potential. They CAN share content between games, which CAN make for some interesting content.  As many of you may know, that is not how they are being used, and I'm afraid Mario Maker has done nothing to change this.  Instead, it seems this is just more consumer milking.  This is no reason that the "Amiibo" content in this or other games needs to be locked behind a paywall, other than for Nintendo to profit more. 

This...........is reminiscent of something EA would do, and I mean that in the worst possible way.

Edited by Anarchy_Balsac, 21 August 2015 - 01:58 PM.

[Avaro]

ZC can't be compared with Mario Maker for obvious reasons. It is probably THE best game designing tool today, if you are willing to take the time to learn it (at least for me it is. lol). But Mario Maker is still an amazing tool and something many people have always wished for. It's dreams coming true xD No wonder the hype is big. If you like SMB a lot, it will probably take a very long time before it gets stale.

What you say about the longevity is true, but a game doesn't need to be supported forever. I'm sure there is going to be stuff like Mario Maker 2 in the far future.

As for unlocking stuff by waiting for it, what argument does Nintendo have? I would guess that it's supposed to make everything more userfriendly by not overwhelming the player with features. If that's the argument, then yeah it's not a very strong one. It's not going to hurt the game too much though, with the way they have it.

And amiibos? I personally don't care about them, because I don't like the idea of having to pay extra money for very minor and sometimes pointless additions xD Maybe I would think different if I actually had a Wii U, not sure about that.

I'm just disappointed that there's no 3DS version

Edited by Avataro, 21 August 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[Anarchy_Balsac]

I'm just disappointed that there's no 3DS version

Oh there WILL be, and it will be way better and cheaper than the Wii U version because Nintendo HATES Wii U owners.  Just ask anyone who bought Hyrule Warriors...........

[Deedee]

The thing I am excited for is the ability to combine multiple elements to make something unique. That's something you don't see in other Mario rom hacks. 

[Shane]

The thing is, and I could perhaps be wrong on this, but Super Mario Maker was (or still is, perhaps) intended to be an anniversary gift for all the fans. And what's stopping you from dusting off the Wii U and possibly the NX off and playing Mario Maker a few years from now? We still have people who play the NES, SNES, etc. Regarding DLC(?) and Amiibo, yeah, I am not a personal fan of those, but I see the appeal of the game unlocking itself over time, as it gives us some replay value.

 

Also I have no problem with this being 2D. Is it really a problem? Quality and preference is very subjective, features themselves aren't what people are hyped for. It's their own opinion that the features are well executed and pay off. I am personally not hyped for SMM, but I understand the hype; they just like it. Simple as that.

[The Satellite]

This is why you should be excited for Super Mario Maker. Yeah yeah you could argue Lunar Magic or whatever could do these, but I think the appeal of Super Mario Maker is being able to download and play short courses for fun instead of working through an entire hack that could easily be bad. The amiibo stuff isn't even a draw for me at all so I don't mind that, but everything there in the default package looks awesome to me.

[Moonbread]

Well, it's specifically for sidescrolling for a few main reasons.  One, it's SMB's 30th anniversary- one of the most important games of all time, if not the most.  That's what they're celebrating.  Two, it's a lot faster (and easier) to develop a sidescrolling level than a 3D level- and it most likely wouldn't include a 64/Galaxy style but rather a 3D Land/World style if it was a 3D Mario Maker, and people would much rather have the former and would complain anyway.  Three, whether you like it or not, the 2D Mario games are a hell of a lot more popular than the 3D games- NSMB was hugely popular, for example, after 64 and Sunshine, because some people were worried Nintendo didn't want to do traditional Mario games anymore.  Heck, that's why 3D Land and 3D World encompass more linear level design, because they were trying to attract the more traditional players toward 3D entries.  Most of the big name 2D Mario games have also had record sales and are highly loved- over the past 30 years, people will still dispute that SMB3 and SMW are the best Mario games ever made.  Trying to say they're bland is like trying to say the LotR trilogy or the original Star Wars trilogy aren't good.  You can personally dislike them, but you can't disagree with the numbers.

 

Also, if you look up what people with review copies have been creating for it, you are missing out.  Or you could watch the stuff from the Nintendo World Championships.  Either way, there are some amazing gems out there.  If you're saying they're not including enough content, I either think you haven't seen a lot of what's possible, or your standards are so high that you crap gold and complain that you don't piss diamonds instead.  I'm not saying you shouldn't hope for more features (which is incredibly likely since Nintendo has said in an interview that they want to keep their current games going for a while rather than making new entries), I just feel like there's a lack of appreciation for what's being given to us.  You could make a full, enjoyable Mario game with just the basics, and there's a looot more than just the basics in the game.

 

Also, I do think people really are generally overreacting about having to wait 9 days for all the content.  (Gamers?  Overreacting?  SAY IT AIN'T SO!)  I'll admit that I wish you started with a bit more than the basics, but I think it'll still help ease people into it.  It'll give people a chance to practice to learn an understanding of a good flow for a Mario level before throwing in the more crazy stuff.  And even if you've made Mario levels before, I mean...it's only 9 days.  A minor inconvenience at the worst, really.  And I doubt they're going to do this with much of anything else they make.  It's made sense for Splatoon because it's an online shooter and can always have new elements added to it, and it's not the worst thing here since it's a level creator... but do you think they'd do this for like, The Legend of Zelda or a Yoshi game?  I doubt they'd be like, "Ooh, you have to wait 4 more days until you can access Lake Hylia in your adventure!  In the meantime, continue exploring the Lost Woods again!"

 

Also, you can unlock the costumes in the game by doing challenges rather than collecting amiibo (I personally like collecting them but some people don't and that's okay), and some of the stuff available doesn't even have amiibo- for instance, the Waluigi, Tingle, and Ashley costumes.

[thepsynergist]

If you want to make 2D Mario games for PC, try your hand at hacking with Lunar Magic.

[Koh]

The thing I am excited for is the ability to combine multiple elements to make something unique. That's something you don't see in other Mario rom hacks. 

You obviously haven't seen Cool or Cruel.

This hack goes all the way down to the programmer/assembler level of SMW, and has some original, fun madness there to create stuff the likes of which no other hack of SMW has seen.

 

And this is where I can agree Mario Maker will fall short.  I highly doubt it'll have a programming language of any kind, to allow full custom setups with the Mario assets.  So eventually, just like ZC Quests without scripting, they'll all start to feel copy-paste and get stale, save for the token one every so often.

 

Also, the spriter in me is ticked that some of the new assets they made for the older styles either aren't using the same palette limitations, or look slightly out of style, thus looking out of place XP.  Also, that drop shadow behind all the tiles and sprites makes the game look like one big, shitty, green-screen movie, like the Amazing Bulk.  Not that any of the styles are anything to scream about anyway.  Only the All-Stars Style seems like it has any sort of depth too it; the others look flat.

Edited by Koh, 21 August 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[Moosh]

This is why you should be excited for Super Mario Maker. Yeah yeah you could argue Lunar Magic or whatever could do these, but I think the appeal of Super Mario Maker is being able to download and play short courses for fun instead of working through an entire hack that could easily be bad. The amiibo stuff isn't even a draw for me at all so I don't mind that, but everything there in the default package looks awesome to me.

This has actually turned me against Mario Maker. Mandatory time limit? I aiiiiiin't havin that shit!

[Anarchy_Balsac]

Well, it's specifically for sidescrolling for a few main reasons.  One, it's SMB's 30th anniversary- one of the most important games of all time, if not the most.  That's what they're celebrating.  Two, it's a lot faster (and easier) to develop a sidescrolling level than a 3D level- and it most likely wouldn't include a 64/Galaxy style but rather a 3D Land/World style if it was a 3D Mario Maker, and people would much rather have the former and would complain anyway.  Three, whether you like it or not, the 2D Mario games are a hell of a lot more popular than the 3D games- NSMB was hugely popular, for example, after 64 and Sunshine, because some people were worried Nintendo didn't want to do traditional Mario games anymore.  Heck, that's why 3D Land and 3D World encompass more linear level design, because they were trying to attract the more traditional players toward 3D entries.  Most of the big name 2D Mario games have also had record sales and are highly loved- over the past 30 years, people will still dispute that SMB3 and SMW are the best Mario games ever made.  Trying to say they're bland is like trying to say the LotR trilogy or the original Star Wars trilogy aren't good.  You can personally dislike them, but you can't disagree with the numbers.

 

Also, if you look up what people with review copies have been creating for it, you are missing out.  Or you could watch the stuff from the Nintendo World Championships.  Either way, there are some amazing gems out there.  If you're saying they're not including enough content, I either think you haven't seen a lot of what's possible, or your standards are so high that you crap gold and complain that you don't piss diamonds instead.  I'm not saying you shouldn't hope for more features (which is incredibly likely since Nintendo has said in an interview that they want to keep their current games going for a while rather than making new entries), I just feel like there's a lack of appreciation for what's being given to us.  You could make a full, enjoyable Mario game with just the basics, and there's a looot more than just the basics in the game.

 

Also, I do think people really are generally overreacting about having to wait 9 days for all the content.  (Gamers?  Overreacting?  SAY IT AIN'T SO!)  I'll admit that I wish you started with a bit more than the basics, but I think it'll still help ease people into it.  It'll give people a chance to practice to learn an understanding of a good flow for a Mario level before throwing in the more crazy stuff.  And even if you've made Mario levels before, I mean...it's only 9 days.  A minor inconvenience at the worst, really.  And I doubt they're going to do this with much of anything else they make.  It's made sense for Splatoon because it's an online shooter and can always have new elements added to it, and it's not the worst thing here since it's a level creator... but do you think they'd do this for like, The Legend of Zelda or a Yoshi game?  I doubt they'd be like, "Ooh, you have to wait 4 more days until you can access Lake Hylia in your adventure!  In the meantime, continue exploring the Lost Woods again!"

 

Also, you can unlock the costumes in the game by doing challenges rather than collecting amiibo (I personally like collecting them but some people don't and that's okay), and some of the stuff available doesn't even have amiibo- for instance, the Waluigi, Tingle, and Ashley costumes.

 

On your first point, I mostly agree.  My point isn't that 3D/Galaxy style makers are likely, or should happen, just that I don't like 2D Mario games very much.

 

To your second, it isn't about high standards or not having enough features.  They could put a lot more, or a lot less, and Mario Maker will get the same level of interest from me.  I am simply not interest in side scrolling mario games, it's as simple as that.  I'm not saying people aren't entitled to like it, or that there is no legit reason to do so.  No, I am saying that if you're someone like me, who doesn't have much interest in such levels, then just the fact that they put some cool features in shouldn't make it a great thing by itself.

 

To your third, it depends on what you mean by overreacting.  If by overreacting, you mean that people are blowing the 9 days thing out of proportion, I agree.  But if you think the worry that they're setting a bad precedent is overreacting, then I have to seriously disagree with you there.  9 days isn't the end of the world, but the possibility that they are setting a very bad trend that could lead to home console games with 90 day or such unlocks, that's a bit more serious.  Granted, it hasn't happened, but it certainly can.

 

The costumes thing is a good point, but I still say using Amiibo as a cheap sales gimmick is little more than consumer milking either way.  This is also the case with many micro-transaction based DLC, where you CAN get by without buying the power ups.  Doesn't mean it's not still a shady practice.

Edited by Anarchy_Balsac, 21 August 2015 - 04:46 PM.

[Kivitoe]

Oh there WILL be, and it will be way better and cheaper than the Wii U version because Nintendo HATES Wii U owners.  Just ask anyone who bought Hyrule Warriors...........

Yeah, I can't even play Hyrule Warriors! It stopped working the second time I tried to use it! 

[Avaro]

This has actually turned me against Mario Maker. Mandatory time limit? I aiiiiiin't havin that shit!

I guess the reason is that otherwise people could upload levels that take hours to solve and that isnt very mario-like. I don't know xD

Edited by Avataro, 21 August 2015 - 05:15 PM.

[Tabletpillow]

Has anyone forgot that Super Mario Bros X exists?

 

Sorry if I'm bringing it up for the 8 millionth time, but SMBX has one of the best Mario level editors for the computer to date. Lunar Magic isn't the only PC Mario editor.

Edited by a30502355, 21 August 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[Koh]

At least you didn't say the Hello Mario Engine, lol.  That's been floating around too, and it's got some problems that are present in everything made from it xD.