111 replies to this topic

[anikom15]

I think it's easy to say MM2 and Ocarina of Time are overrated if you're looking at the games retroactively, but if you look at them from the perspective of when they came out, their flaws don't really matter because the game itself was so exciting.

Doom is the same way. You can't jump, you can't aim up, and the elevators are weird, but nobody was noticing that at the time.

I never thought it made sense to compare incontemporary games with each other. You're comparing it to Mega Man 3 when you should be comparing it to Super C and Super Mario Bros. USA.

[Lejes]

Mega Man 5 is actually the best of the classic series by a considerable margin.

[Nathaniel]

Megaman 2 was my first played Megaman game, so for me it has nostalgic value.  I still enjoy playing it even to this day, but by no means do I think it is the best in the series.  I think your criticisms are spot on, especially about the lack of balance and the overpowered Metal Blade.  My guess was that they wanted to respond to Megaman 1 being too difficult, but I think they went overboard with that and thus Megaman 2 was too easy, mostly due to the Metal Blade.  There are certain annoying exceptions of course, such as what you said about Heat Man's stage, which I almost always do last among the robot stages.  There really is no reason to complete that stage before others, unless you are terrible at alternatives for fighting Wood Man, even the Metal Blade.  I agree with most of your other points too.  Megaman 3 through 6 were overall better designed than the first two due to better balance.  Megaman 3 is my favorite with the introduction to rush and the additional stages.  4 was a nice one too.  5 seemed less creative in comparison (although the low gravity of Star Man's stage and the anti-gravity of Gravity Man's stage were interesting), mostly after the robot master stages.  While 6 attempted to bring new concepts to the table, it was a new period of time for Nintendo and gaming in general at that point with the NES being obsolete with newer systems out, thus its lesser popularity.  But I still enjoyed it a lot.

Be that as it all is, a fair semi-challenge Let's Play for Megaman 2 would be to win the game without ever using the Metal Blade.  I don't recall there being a point where the Metal Blade is required, but maybe my memory is failing me.

[Moosh]

I never thought it made sense to compare incontemporary games with each other. You're comparing it to Mega Man 3 when you should be comparing it to Super C and Super Mario Bros. USA.

Honestly I'd put both of those well above Mega Man 2. I wouldn't say Mega Man 2 was a bad game, but it had some serious problems even for its time period.

[KingPridenia]

Someone finally had to break down Megaman 2. It's funny how other games can have its flaws and they're ripped a new one, but say that about MM2 and you'll have hundreds of enraged fanboys flaming you and attacking you with a dozen gatling guns of abuse. Probably the biggest problem is also once you game over, all of those E-Tanks you saved up? G-O-N-E. Also that boss that requires Crash Bomb. That was the BIGGEST idiot mistake ever. And if you have like 9 lives, have fun painfully killing yourself over and over again.

 

Another minor thing about Metalman is he is pathetically easy. He only does what? Like 3 ticks of damage with his attacks? Even with just the pea shooter, it's very easy to run a war of attrition, even with subpar dodging. So you beat one of the easiest bosses to get the most broken weapon in the game. Then again, Rolling Cutter in Mega Man on the GB was really awful for being broken as well.

 

Perhaps back in the late 80s when Megaman 2 came out people didn't mind a game being brutally difficult and requiring memorization to even think about seeing it through. But these days, all that does is artificially lengthen the game. Once you master it, the game can be beaten in 40 minutes or so. The best RTS without glitch abuse is 29:28. Your first time through however? Probably many hours or even days/weeks. The levels and bosses are just trial and error. You're going to suck at them for a while until you get things down pat (or use the items to make it easier).

[The Satellite]

I think it's easy to say MM2 and Ocarina of Time are overrated if you're looking at the games retroactively, but if you look at them from the perspective of when they came out, their flaws don't really matter because the game itself was so exciting.

On top of what Moosh said, there's also the concept of datedness. If a game is no longer fun, it's no longer fun.
 

Mega Man 5 is actually the best of the classic series by a considerable margin.

In a more serious response, I only played it once and I remember not liking it at all. I'd planned to give it another shot soon I hope.

Another minor thing about Metalman is he is pathetically easy. He only does what? Like 3 ticks of damage with his attacks? Even with just the pea shooter, it's very easy to run a war of attrition, even with subpar dodging. So you beat one of the easiest bosses to get the most broken weapon in the game.

You're absolutely correct and I should've mentioned that, I feel like I'd wanted to and forgot. He really is pretty easy and I start first with him anyway because of that.

[Nathaniel]

Metalman is quite easy on normal.  He is more reasonable on difficult, yet I still find Bubbleman and Flashman to be easier without robot master weapons.  Bubbleman's moves are slow and more predictable and thus he is easy to avoid, and Flashman is clumsy and has an infrequent fire rate, but his room layout requires a lot of jumping.  Flashman you just have to keep at him, to reduce the frequency of the Time Stopper from going off.  Woodman I find to be difficult without the Metal Blade or Atomic Fire on difficult mode, but still pretty doable.  He is invulnerable most of the time, so you have to be ready to make your move when opportunity knocks.  I still struggle with Crash Man without the Air Shooter even to this day, due to his speed combined with his jump easily getting in your way.  I also struggle against Airman without the Leaf Shield, but not to as much extent.  Heatman isn't too hard without the Bubble Lead, but he is still the hardest to reach, without Item-2.  Quickman is doable without the Time Stopper if you are good at anticipating his moves, but that can be hard with his speed.  Even the standard weapon does more than standard damage to him on difficult.  I have managed to fight him just fine as the 2nd robot in an alternative sequence, just after Flashman.

[anikom15]

Perhaps back in the late 80s when Megaman 2 came out people didn't mind a game being brutally difficult and requiring memorization to even think about seeing it through. But these days, all that does is artificially lengthen the game. Once you master it, the game can be beaten in 40 minutes or so. The best RTS without glitch abuse is 29:28. Your first time through however? Probably many hours or even days/weeks. The levels and bosses are just trial and error. You're going to suck at them for a while until you get things down pat (or use the items to make it easier).

Mega Man 2 does not require memorization and is not 'brutally difficult'. In fact, I think it's the easiest Mega Man game and one of the easiest games for the NES. I beat nearly every level (difficult mode of course) on my first try. The only difficult stages were the Wily stages, which are supposed to be hard. The Mega Man series is very fair, but it's hard too. Each enemy has a pattern and there's an optimal path for going through the game (Air Man first). Artificial difficulty was common in the 3rd generation, but the Mega Man series isn't an offender, even the first one. It really is genuinely difficult.

Play The Adventures of Bayou Billy. Now that is artificial difficulty.

On top of what Moosh said, there's also the concept of datedness. If a game is no longer fun, it's no longer fun.

I'm not sure that this's possible. I mean, I've never played a game that I liked and thought, I don't like this anymore, at least from what I can remember. Did you enjoy Mega Man 2 at one point? When did you stop enjoying it?

[Orithan]

Mega Man 2 does not require memorization and is not 'brutally difficult'. In fact, I think it's the easiest Mega Man game and one of the easiest games for the NES. I beat nearly every level (difficult mode of course) on my first try. The only difficult stages were the Wily stages, which are supposed to be hard. The Mega Man series is very fair, but it's hard too. Each enemy has a pattern and there's an optimal path for going through the game (Air Man first). Artificial difficulty was common in the 3rd generation, but the Mega Man series isn't an offender, even the first one. It really is genuinely difficult.

 

Did you even read TS' rant? Here, I will quote some of the bigger parts of his post:

 

That's the small stuff. We're on to the last few points, but probably the biggest. We're gonna close off talking about the final segments of the game, starting with the Mecha Dragon, boss of Wily Stage 1. Now what we've got here is admittedly a pretty awesome chase, resulting in... an incredibly cheap boss fight; victory comes from having high amounts of luck, skill, or patience. Or a combination of the three. You only have three one tile wide platforms to stand on, and did I mention that the knockback in this game is freakin' ridiculous? Get hit, you're dead. My strategy was basically spam its weakness (Quick Boomerang) and hope I got lucky. Not a good way to start the final fortress.

 

Bolded the relevant part. What TS is describing is not genuine difficulty, but is a complete cheapshot and I completely agree with him here. Literally any hit from the Mecha Dragon will kill you. Contact with the dragon itself is a OHKO and any hit from it's attacks is going to knock you off the platform. This is unquestionably cheap and pretty much anyone will agree with me here.

 

But that's only the beginning boss. No, the final pre-Wily boss is another monstrosity entirely: The Boobeam Trap, or "that f***ing thing." You see, there's a series of little bulbs that are weak to the Crash Bomb only. They're protected by walls... ... that only Crash Bombs can destroy. Also, there are more walls and traps combined than your Crash Bomb can actually destroy, so you better pick your shots carefully and don't miss; even in an optimal route you will only have enough to shoot everything that must be shot to destroy it. So what if you miss a shot? What if you die prematurely? What if you accidentally fire too many shots? Die and restart? Did you forget that unless you game over your weapon energy doesn't refill?! You'll either have to somehow grind energy back or just game over to refill your energy in order to try again and you might fail again and have to repeat the process AND YOU KNOW WHAT?!

 

Again, what's in bold is the most relevant part and I happen to completely agree with it. This is the worst boss I've ever encountered in a professionally released game, bar none. Forcing you to fight a mandatory boss perfectly in order to merely win or you have to grind a stupid amount on annoying enemies or kill yourself repeatedly just to fight it again is the definition of cheap difficulty. There is no possible way you can argue that this is not cheap.

[Nicholas Steel]

I would like to point out that the Sniper Joe's in the last fortress aren't too difficult, you're meant to dash under their attacks... then again I forget if Megaman 2 has the dash ability.

[anikom15]

Did you even read TS' rant? Here, I will quote some of the bigger parts of his post:


Bolded the relevant part. What TS is describing is not genuine difficulty, but is a complete cheapshot and I completely agree with him here. Literally any hit from the Mecha Dragon will kill you. Contact with the dragon itself is a OHKO and any hit from it's attacks is going to knock you off the platform. This is unquestionably cheap and pretty much anyone will agree with me here.


Again, what's in bold is the most relevant part and I happen to completely agree with it. This is the worst boss I've ever encountered in a professionally released game, bar none. Forcing you to fight a mandatory boss perfectly in order to merely win or you have to grind a stupid amount on annoying enemies or kill yourself repeatedly just to fight it again is the definition of cheap difficulty. There is no possible way you can argue that this is not cheap.

Nah man, by the time you get to the dragon, you know touching a boss will do serious damage. This isn't the first boss of the game. I think I beat it in about two or three tries the first time (not just spamming it either like our expert reviewer). It wasn't bad.

The crash boss is indefensible, but that's one boss out of the other what 11? It's not that it's cheap either. It's not cheap, it's just poorly designed. If there less walls to destroy it would've been fine.

RMA was making it seem like the whole game is rage-inducing and requires memorization. The fact that I played through nearly every level without dying shows you don't need to memorize anything.

Edited by anikom15, 30 June 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[Koh]

RMA was making it seem like the whole game is rage-inducing and requires memorization. The fact that I played through nearly every level without dying shows you don't need to memorize anything.

Actually, this is one of those kinds of arguments that don't work.  It's just like someone saying "I smoke everyday and haven't had health issues, so there must be no problem with it."  One rare occurrence doesn't nullify the rule.  If the majority of those who've played have found that it requires some heavy amount of trial and error to progress, then it is unanimously so, regardless of a few slips in the cracks.

Edited by Koh, 30 June 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[anikom15]

That's true. Maybe I just have superpowers.

Edited by anikom15, 30 June 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[The Satellite]

I would like to point out that the Sniper Joe's in the last fortress aren't too difficult, you're meant to dash under their attacks... then again I forget if Megaman 2 has the dash ability.

You mean the slide? That didn't come around until Megaman 3.

[KingPridenia]

Okay, first of all, not the ENTIRE game is like that. But try doing the Yoku Block segment in Heat Man's stage on your first playthrough WITHOUT Item 2 and tell me how well you do. It's just pointless trial and error. Having to repeat 2-3 minutes of stage when you game over just makes it more tedious. Oh, and the Quick Man beams. I DARE you to complete that on your first attempt without dying several times or resorting to Time Stopper (provided you have it). It is possible yes, but not something your run of the mill gamer is going to do on his/her first try.

 

Maybe if I put it in the context of another game. Say you have to go through 10 minutes of a Zelda dungeon to get to a room with very difficult platforming. If you stuff it up ONCE, you're kicked all the way to the start. Once you're good at it, you probably won't screw it up, but your first time through, you'll probably be tempted to break your controller before completing it. Now, if said room just put you back at the room's entrance with one less heart, it would be far less unfair and tedious. Possibly still as frustrating as ever, but at least you don't have to redo a bunch of crap just for another attempt. You don't repeat 9th and 10th grade because you flunked 11th grade. It's a very annoying gaming trope and I know TS and others that have reviewed quests pointed out several times that is just poor game design, turning what could have been a 4/5 into a 3/5.

 

@franpa: Slide was added in Megaman 3 and charging got added in the 4th game.