21 replies to this topic

[David]

Hi everyone,

 

At the start of the year, we changed how our site events and submission processes are handled (as previously highlighted by this announcement post). Among these efforts, we relaunched Screen Rebirth and Map of the Month alongside maintaining events like Screenshot of the Week, Enemy of the Month, and Quest Club. Additionally, we launched the nomination process for Year in Review, a revised version of the Superlatives.

 

As things currently stand, however, all of these events appear to be at a crossroads. Lack of participation, as well as event organizers constantly asking for entries, has left the staff team wondering what the best course of action may be. Screenshot of the Week has had submissions from a very small and very regular group since November, while Ether's recent thread in Quest Club echoes similar concerns around members' involvement. There is also Year in Review's lack of success, which received a nomination list from just one member of the community.

 

We recognize there are many factors at play regarding this downturn in event engagement. As such, discussions have been held by staff privately over the last month to decide upon what we - and the community at large - should do. Various suggestions have been proposed, ranging from reevaluating the frequency of certain events to abandoning regular events like Screenshot of the Week entirely in favor of more infrequent events, like Expos. Another suggestion was the possibility of implementing a rotational event system, where one event takes center stage every two weeks or each month, progressing sequentially through our roster of offerings before cycling back. Lastly, we've also pondered the idea of transitioning certain aspects of select events away from a competitive format to being showcased within our Monthly Features, prominently featured in the site news section on the front page.

 

It is also safe to say that we will not be moving ahead with Year in Review, and will be focusing on the Monthly Features instead.

 

In saying all of this, we want to hear from the community before we go through with any sweeping changes. Please vote in the polls so we can get an idea of where the community is at as a whole. Your written feedback, commentary, and criticisms are highly valued here as well. We encourage you to provide insights into the structure of our events, their timing, and any potential enhancements that would increase your inclination to participate.

 

Kind regards,

PureZC Staff Team

[Mani Kanina]

I don't have any broad thoughts on the subject at the moment. But one thing that can be done for Screenshot of the Week specifically would be to move over to a new publishing style. Rather than it being weekly, or biweekly, etc, you'd instead have each one go live when it has enough entries. (But no sooner than a week apart). That was staff won't feel like they have to pester people for submissions, instead people submit when they feel like they've got something they want to show.

That being said, now when I'm thinking about it. SotW have generally always been more of a contest. But in the past- way back when -when people submitted screens they often did that with the expectation of getting feedback. And indeed, there used to be people who'd look at all the entries and do a write up. You don't really see that as much anymore either. And strictly personal speaking, if I want thoughts or feedback on something I'm working on I just post it in the discord, where I more immediately get it.

hmm.

Yeah I'm just kinda rambling here.

[Ether]

My understanding is that Deedee wants to keep running EotM; is there any reason not to let her as long as that's true? It creates public resources for the community. (I do think it might help to have more scripting tutorials oriented at making simple monsters. I think a lot of people are too intimidated to even stick their toe into scripting.)

 

That being said, now when I'm thinking about it. SotW have generally always been more of a contest. But in the past- way back when -when people submitted screens they often did that with the expectation of getting feedback. And indeed, there used to be people who'd look at all the entries and do a write up. You don't really see that as much anymore either. And strictly personal speaking, if I want thoughts or feedback on something I'm working on I just post it in the discord, where I more immediately get it.

I'm interested in other people's thoughts on this; I've kind of tapered off on the criticism but I can go back to it if it's what people want.

 

I've mentioned it in private, but I intend to step down as Quest Club boss. I do hope someone else takes up the mantle, Haylee still deserves her shot, but...yeah, I'm kind of feeling pessimistic and gross about everything right now in a way that goes beyond just Quest Club.

[Jenny]

I think the core problem with SotW and MotM in particular is that they're outdated concepts tbh. I doubt anyone really cares about the contest aspect of them anymore, and if you really want feedback it's much more convenient to just... post your screens on the Discord.

Screen Rebirth and EotM both have niches that allow them to avoid that issue, namely that you're making something with a specific prompt. EotM in particular is also a great community resource so there's that too.

[Taco Chopper]

Screenshot of the Week has been running more or less on the fact that it's a legacy event that's been ongoing in some form or another since 2002.

 

Twenty-two years. That's an absurd amount of time, and my understanding is that it's nearly as long as this site's existence. Could the problem be that the way the contest is held doesn't hold up to modern, post-Discord era standards? Is it worth continuing in an era where forums don't have the popularity or reach they once did? People want to see it continue, but how do you keep something running when it's barely able to get a minimum amount of entries per week?

 

The response I've had from the community at times has been a mixed bag too, and it's really hard to gauge what people want. Some complained that having it in a weekly format last year was too much, while others have been upset about moving back to the fortnightly schedule since the start of the year. It's a lose-lose from an event organiser point-of-view.

 

It's fair to say this impacts Map of the Month on a larger scale in that it's actual maps rather than one screenshot. But as Jenny said, maybe they're both concepts that just can't hold up in a time where Discord exists? Is it time to move on?

 

That being said, now when I'm thinking about it. SotW have generally always been more of a contest. But in the past- way back when -when people submitted screens they often did that with the expectation of getting feedback. And indeed, there used to be people who'd look at all the entries and do a write up. You don't really see that as much anymore either. And strictly personal speaking, if I want thoughts or feedback on something I'm working on I just post it in the discord, where I more immediately get it.

It goes in hand with the lack of participation on an entry front. I'd love to sit there and pull apart every screen but I feel like that comes from a place of bias as not only the event organiser, but an occasional participant - and half the time there's usually little to no responses in the contest threads like Screen Rebirth. I don't know if it's a good look if I'm replying to myself three times in one thread like that. 

 

Screen Rebirth and EotM both have niches that allow them to avoid that issue, namely that you're making something with a specific prompt. EotM in particular is also a great community resource so there's that too.

The specific prompt is what makes them work, but even then, we're onto the second Screen Rebirth contest for the year and there's been just one entry in a week and a half...

[Mani Kanina]

The response I've had from the community at times has been a mixed bag too, and it's really hard to gauge what people want. Some complained that having it in a weekly format last year was too much, while others have been upset about moving back to the fortnightly schedule since the start of the year. It's a lose-lose from an event organiser point-of-view.

It's sadly unlikely that you're going to have a solution with universal appeal here. A lot people like the idea of SotW and to have it run weekly. But that does not necessarily translate to submissions.

I think step one is settling on ideas for what things are feasible and plausible to run and in what format/capacity. It really does not matter if people want there to be a contest weekly if that isn't going to happen regardless of if it being hosted.

Once some ideas are on the table on the how then we can talk preference amongst the community for which they'd rather. But it seems to me that "keep running it like before" isn't something that is on the table at all.

[TheRock]

I have a idea. What if someone could submit a screen shot or map for you? (With permission from that person that such can be done.) I would volunteer anything I made in my quests to be submitted like this. 

[Taco Chopper]

I have a idea. What if someone could submit a screen shot or map for you? (With permission from that person that such can be done.) I would volunteer anything I made in my quests to be submitted like this. 

Doesn't that go against the point of, well, entering something of your own work for a contest? Wouldn't you want to make the call on what you would want to enter in Map of the Month?
That also doesn't solve the issue of people not submitting - what's to say that people are going to want to tear apart other people's quests on the proviso they're going to submit screenshots of your work to Screenshot of the Week on your behalf?

 

It's sadly unlikely that you're going to have a solution with universal appeal here. A lot people like the idea of SotW and to have it run weekly. But that does not necessarily translate to submissions.

I think step one is settling on ideas for what things are feasible and plausible to run and in what format/capacity. It really does not matter if people want there to be a contest weekly if that isn't going to happen regardless of if it being hosted.

It's a lot to do with why we've thrown it out to the public for feedback. Year in Review was more or less drafted up over a couple of weeks, and there wasn't any consultation with the community around it at all, which I personally take responsibility for.

 

Right now, all of the events running on PureZC aren't working, and we want to consult the community on that before we draw up any form of direction forward. If people want to have their input while we figure this out, then it's not only appreciated, but it gives us an idea of what path we should propose. There's been a few suggestions made by staff privately that David's already mentioned, such as consolidating screenshots and maps into the Monthly Features.

 

Once some ideas are on the table on the how then we can talk preference amongst the community for which they'd rather. But it seems to me that "keep running it like before" isn't something that is on the table at all.

Unless somebody miraculous drops 20 screens into the SotW dropbox overnight, and that somebody is about four or five people, "keep running it like before" is definitely off the table. The priority for PureZC in 2024 should be about bringing the community back together after a rather intense 2023. Contests like SotW don't have the same effect to do that like they once did ten, twenty years ago.

[TheRock]

Umm... They submit it for me. So it's still my entry and only one per week. Tear apart? What do you mean? I want people to submit a screen shot or map for me. (Only people that gave permission to use their quests or certain quests would be allowed). So there would be a list of what stuff like that would be allowed. 

Edited by TheRock, 21 March 2024 - 10:05 AM.

[Taco Chopper]

By "tear apart", I mean opening up the quest and doing whatever you want with it.

 

That said, my answer is still a firm no. Like I said above, we're already having enough issues with people submitting their own work, so why would people want to take the time to look through your quests and submit your screenshots on your behalf? Wouldn't going through somebody else's quest looking for a screen to submit for them be just as time consuming as making one for yourself from scratch?

 

The approach I understand; allowing another avenue for more work to be entered. The process you're suggesting would be complicated to run and doesn't fix the main problem we're facing with these kinds of events - people participating to begin with.

[Twilight Knight]

I don't have any broad thoughts on the subject at the moment. But one thing that can be done for Screenshot of the Week specifically would be to move over to a new publishing style. Rather than it being weekly, or biweekly, etc, you'd instead have each one go live when it has enough entries. (But no sooner than a week apart). That was staff won't feel like they have to pester people for submissions, instead people submit when they feel like they've got something they want to show.

To me this is a very sensible idea.

 

I like the contests to get me motivated to make more ZC stuff.

I think adding the dropboxes on Discord was a good move. It would be supreme if the contests were somehow integrated with Discord

[Jenny]

I think adding the dropboxes on Discord was a good move. It would be supreme if the contests were somehow integrated with Discord

Out of curiosity, do you have any ideas as to what integrating the contests with Discord could look like?

[Chris]

To start with, I am completely out of the loop regarding anything happening on Discord, it kinda stresses me out and I prefer lurking in the forums.

Just saying in case my suggestions are not compatible with Discord at all.

For Screenshots and Maps (combined) I could imagine something like the following:
- A monthly topic that can be lengthened by another month each time you don't get enough submissions to start voting, the time frame is mostly there to just have one.
- Each month you have 2 Screenshots for Rebirth and one theme. These can be completely ignored, but they serve as a challenge what you could do, especially with the option of combining them. Maybe also a specific tileset for that month, again optional.
- Let's say you have a dungeon screen, a forest screen and an "exploring a frozen cave" theme. You could try to replicate just the forest screen, but for a bigger challenge you could try to combine both the forest and dungeon screen and even add the frozen cave theme to it.
- The topic is basically just there to share your screen, talk about it, get feedback. The topic won't get closed if the month is over to not interrupt talks, but if you want to share a new screen, you are supposed to post it in the newest topic.
- To add the contest element back to this, after the month is over, all submissions of that are collected, including the ones where the creator statet "not for contest" or so. Also the ones on Discord, so people can decide to use either only the Forum or Discord, but for the "contest" you still see all submissions.
- You can vote for each submission seperately, something along the line of I love it, I like it or Null vote. They are the start of the new topic, but at the same time, you directly give the new challenges and such.

It sucks a bit that that way people will see if people really don't like their screen with not having to choose just one, but overall I find it better than just being able to give just a single vote and then being forced to say some empty words if I want to adress my liking but don't have much more to say than that I really like it and also feel bad about ignoring or negatively adressing the screens and maps I don't like.

I think putting maps, screens, challenges, feedback and the contest all into the same topic should help a lot to get a minimum amount of content for that topic while limiting the amount of content by starting a new topic when the stuff things there is enough without a specific time frame should help a lot.

Like the old feedback topics for maps and screens can be kinda overwhelming to look through and the old contest topics don't have much to offer besides a quick look at the submissions, the topic I described above (in case it would work) seems far more interesting to look through at a later point.

I also know that even the people that, unlike me, can actually get motivated enough to create and submit stuff, struggle with mitivation a lot.

Having more challenges to motivate yourself without them being a must, a more relaxed time window to submit whenever you want and to get direct feedback (or give feedback) and to always be able to compare your results in the contest seems like a good solution to me.

For Enemy of the Month you could do something similar like giving an enemy theme, a tricky item/script idea and old enemies to redesigning a challenge and allow anything from enemies, items, scripts, demos including ones that try to show off a concept that does not yet still work out maybe.

Maybe even allowing people to send script requests to stuff with the note that the topic itself does not allow scripts requests and that, since the challenges are optional, even if a request is choosen as the current topic's theme, noone is obligated to do that challenge at all.

Edited by Chris, 22 March 2024 - 09:15 AM.

[Chris]

For the quest club, I have looked a bit into Ether's topic, but I didn't read too much it, so not sure what was said already.

Since I struggle a lot with motivation, two weeks is tricky for me to participate regularly. For the first quest, I asked a buddy if it was settled with 2 Weeks or a Month and he said a month (not blaming anyone, ofc, just saying how it was) and when I finally got in the mood to get back to ZC and play my first quest since forever, I instead saw that I was already to late and since then I could not get myself to start with another one, including some quests just not being interesting to me.

I am not too sure how this could be done best, but to me having a far longer time frame with multiple quests to choose from and discuss would be far mor appealing to me.

Like adding some kind of voting (like with the emoji (?) you add below a post on Discord) to make it so people can share your current state with the quest (first time playing, replaying, still playing but not really liking it, still playing and liking it a lot, on hold and maybe finishing later, stopped playing, no interest, finished, finished long ago) or so could help out?

[Taco Chopper]

For Screenshots and Maps (combined) I could imagine something like the following:
- A monthly topic that can be lengthened by another month each time you don't get enough submissions to start voting, the time frame is mostly there to just have one.
- Each month you have 2 Screenshots for Rebirth and one theme. These can be completely ignored, but they serve as a challenge what you could do, especially with the option of combining them. Maybe also a specific tileset for that month, again optional.
- Let's say you have a dungeon screen, a forest screen and an "exploring a frozen cave" theme. You could try to replicate just the forest screen, but for a bigger challenge you could try to combine both the forest and dungeon screen and even add the frozen cave theme to it.
- The topic is basically just there to share your screen, talk about it, get feedback. The topic won't get closed if the month is over to not interrupt talks, but if you want to share a new screen, you are supposed to post it in the newest topic.
- To add the contest element back to this, after the month is over, all submissions of that are collected, including the ones where the creator statet "not for contest" or so. Also the ones on Discord, so people can decide to use either only the Forum or Discord, but for the "contest" you still see all submissions.
- You can vote for each submission seperately, something along the line of I love it, I like it or Null vote. They are the start of the new topic, but at the same time, you directly give the new challenges and such.

I think a lot of what you've proposed was already done with the Screenshot: Challenge Accepted contest. Both times. The map aspect just sounds like adding a much larger amount of work to it. 
 
I like the core idea of it, but if something with the same format and approach has been retired twice before, what's to say it'll be third time lucky? I'm not sure it'll do much but complicate the process when it needs to be simplified.
 
Similarly with the changes you were proposing with Enemy of the Month. Scripting has been around forever, but I think it's also safe to say that the amount of people in this community who know how to script would be vastly outweighed by the majority who don't. There's also been unofficial challenges run in the past by members that just couldn't get any long term participation either. 
 

It sucks a bit that that way people will see if people really don't like their screen with not having to choose just one, but overall I find it better than just being able to give just a single vote and then being forced to say some empty words if I want to adress my liking but don't have much more to say than that I really like it and also feel bad about ignoring or negatively adressing the screens and maps I don't like.

I think this is the biggest problem plaguing these sorts of contests - people don't know what sort of critique to give in fear of "empty words", while others feel less compelled to enter because they're not getting feedback on work they submitted. It goes both ways - what point is there sharing work you've done if all everyone's going to do is vote and be done with it? That's not to say you have to give a response every time a new Screenshot of the Week/Map of the Month/etc is out, but any contribution makes a difference.
 
I think that's also part of the reason why Year in Review did not succeed at all. Asking people to give their thoughts on what was good about 2023 - rather than just a list of nominees to vote for - was potentially a step too far for the community at this point in time.

 

Since I struggle a lot with motivation, two weeks is tricky for me to participate regularly. For the first quest, I asked a buddy if it was settled with 2 Weeks or a Month and he said a month (not blaming anyone, ofc, just saying how it was) and when I finally got in the mood to get back to ZC and play my first quest since forever, I instead saw that I was already to late and since then I could not get myself to start with another one, including some quests just not being interesting to me.

I am not too sure how this could be done best, but to me having a far longer time frame with multiple quests to choose from and discuss would be far mor appealing to me.

Personally I think the benefit of Quest Club is that there isn't a deadline to having the quest finished by - in my view you should be able to take it at your own pace, and post in the respective Quest Club thread as you see fit. Others might disagree, though.