The idea of removing currentevents at all, is based on the idea that PureZC has not been inclusive. This is either an error on staff's part, or it is intentional, I do not know, though I will say that given how Aevin has to ask people to bring up examples of positive conversations in currentevents, that proves that he has no idea what he's arguing against, and that may be an indication that this was indeed done in error.
I don't want to get into your entire post, because the entire premise dictated here is wrong. PureZC hasn't been inclusive, this is the baseline of the conversation here, from what staff has provided there are plenty of users over several years that have had issues with the toxic space parts of the community has. People on or from pure that I still communicate with may not agree on how toxic pure is/have been, but they all agree on that there is a problem, which both lines up with staffs perspective, and my own.
While your voice will indeed be heard among with everyone eleses, claiming pure is inclusive because you personally feel it is, does not mean that it actually is.
Where CurrentEvents will go is still up in the air and might be worth more consideration and discussion, something I will advocate, the baseline understanding needed to take part and shape the future of that channel requires an understanding that the toxic levels in the community has driven people away and is not particularly inclusive.
Actually, you know what, I changed my mind, let's go over the entire post.
This is simply untrue, and I have yet to post in this thread because I have felt that this singles out a small portion of people as opposed to being a legitimate turn towards helping others feel more comfortable in the server. You don't make 2 people more comfortable if it requires removing a channel a huge part of the community clearly enjoys, if those two people have an issue with the channel, they don't have to go in there, and it really is as simple as that. If you do not have staff member who are willing to moderate it, then you need to hire some people who are. Again, they are not hard to find, I know at least 5 different people who have said they would like to moderate just currentevents.
Saying that there is only two people who have a problem with currentevents when you have no actually numbers is downplaying the suggested large amounts of users, as cited by staff providing feedback on the matter in private, that have had issues.
Also, you say these changes will not make others feel comfortable in the server, what makes you the authority on that? Staff have data that suggests a decent chunk of people have been driven away and are trying to fix that.
The main reason I have stayed out of this conversation is that I have been deeply hurt by it. This may not be completely rational on my part, and I admit that, but this is very much the reason why I have been so angry in other channels, as several staff members will be aware of.
If you are deeply hurt by this decisions, then that sucks. I do however recommend mulling things over in that the current state of affairs might actually have deeply hurt others.
When we moved over to Discord, it didn't take long before staff members that had never before been active in chat, decided that we needed to be singled out and placed into the 'controversial channel',
While discord did replace IRC (I think I had a fair part in popularizing that), it is by extensions a rather different medium. You always had your own ranting channel on IRC, so this really shouldn't be that big of a jump?
Also you say you feel targeted yet don't reflect on that a lot of content in CE could very well be very negatively charged and targeting very specific people.
because apparently having adult conversations is too much for some people. I was annoyed with this back then, because I felt like I was being singled out there too - we even had staff members openly joking about how it was the '#robinchannel', so while I was assured several times that this was not the case, we all know that it played a part. But it was fine, currentevents was not moderated in such a way that people's conversations would be limited, and that convinced me that you really did just want to help out the people who didn't want to see discussions about Trump or China or whatever in general. And that is completely understandable.
I don't really have a huge problem with this, but I just want to like, completely dispel the notion that CE is somehow "adult conversation" in contrast to the other channels. You can have an adult conversation about any topic, and having an adult conversation involves showing baseline respect for people who are different than you. Something that wasn't enforced before that the new rules seek to enforce.
So now when I see one of those same staff members make a thread saying that not only are they closing currentevents down, but they are doing so with the excuse that this is a push towards inclusivity. That is so illogical that I don't even know where to begin.
It's not an excuse, it seems staff is in pretty well agreement that the channel is currently a source of toxicity, you can disagree with that, but with that in mind it makes sense to question the need to keep it up, especially since political discourse, which is the main use, is already disallowed on the forums.
It has already been said a hundred times, so that's okay. But you need to understand that when you say this, it makes me think that you think that I, and everyone else who participated in that channel, is in any way against letting people be comfortable with themselves. You say you're concerned with making people feel comfortable in this community, but how do you think it feels when you're essentially labeling me and anyone else who participated in that channel as transphobes?
Now, I want to say this with as much respect as I can muster but that's hard: Get the fuck over yourself. You talk about having adult mature discussion about topics, yet you can't even muster up the maturity to talk seriously about this matter that is seemingly so important to you, without asserting people are insulting you personally when talking about systemic issues.
No one, literally fucking no one, in this thread has called you a transphobe, not even me. Nor is anyone else being called that, it's not about individual actions, it's about dealing with a systemic issue, one that many might even take part in without realizing.
Without any reasonable excuse. Heck, you even have a user who was previously banned for being toxic, straight up implying that I may be a transphobe in this very thread, and bringing me up by name. The example they cite is an inside joke this person does not understand, but even then they say that even if it is a joke, it 'isn't a matter to be joked about'.
There was a very reasonable reason provided why the future for CE is up for discussion, period.
1. I did not imply you're a transphobe, quite the opposite, I said my thoughts on the matter are irrelevant to the discussion, but the "meme" or "joke" in question is problematic.
2. You're literally taking offense to me bringing up a "joke" that you cite me not understanding by saying it implies you're a transphobe. That should be reason enough to prove that the "joke" is bad and shouldn't have been made. Shouldn't you agree then that it's in bad taste, even if for different reasons than mine?
3. Saying I don't understand the joke is irrelevant, a joke requires understanding, and if your joke hinges on, even if by abstraction, making fun of minorities then I don't consider it a joke. And to extend that, if your joke requires some deeper understanding for it to not seem hurtful to others, then it's a shitty joke to begin with.
4. Why does it matter that I have previously been banned? Please explain how this is relevant to the topic, the only reason you have to bring it up is to try and lessen or invalidate my argumentation without even interacting with it. (Something that is also not very adult discussion worthy, if you ask me). It's not like you yourself hasn't had staff actions taken to you, I'm also pretty confident there is at least one other user commenting in this thread that has also been banned. Are their arguments also meant to be taken as lessened cause they have been banned in the past? Or is just me cause my views differ more from yours?
Tim's ban was similar, you banned him for making a joke that you understood to mean something other than what he was actually saying. You misunderstood a joke and assumed he's a transphobe so out with him.
If people can't tell your so called joke apart from actual offense, then it's a bad joke. Furthermore, something can very well be a joke and be hurtful on the same time. If said jokes causes a toxic atmosphere and, in this case, specifically target minorities, then it's an issue worth considering. Maybe the ban was out of the blue, I think even staff in the thread have agree upon that it was a bad call and the right approach was to start properly moderating instead, something the new rules are meant to help.
These are the kinds of actions that makes me wonder if you really give a shit about making this place inclusive, because despite the fact that you claim that 'so many people' have complained about this for long time, other than banning Tim for a joke you misunderstood, you have done absolutely nothing to actually put an end to the shit that happens in that channel that ALL of us agree is not fit for it.
I wish I had a thinking emoji that was big enough to accurately describe my emotions right now. Staff has already, multiple times, in this very thread explained why moderation has been lax in the past: Burn out.
But no, it's easier to ignore that and extrapolate that staff don't at all care about being inclusive? Cause that's a rational explanation to come to for why? I'm beginning to think you're not making arguments in good faith here.
Yeah, this issue made me really angry. I do not know if I have ever felt about Pure like I do right now. I am still deeply hurt by the horrible implications of the OP and I think if you want to turn this ship around, it will require immense personal reflection on behalf of staff, along the lines of Anthus' fantastic post up there. You need to realize what a colossal mistake you just did, and you also need to take in over yourself just how much this has hurt and offended what I would otherwise argue are great contributors to this community.
Turn this ship around? The implication here is that you think there is no positive traits about anything in the original post. Now, the obvious extrapolation from this is that you think more protection from minorities and the idea to remove toxic stuff is also bad.
Also you say great contributors are deeply hurt and offended by this, but do you give any consideration to people who have been hurt or offended by the current matters of things? Are those people's feelings not worth consideration?
And how offensive is it really to you on a personal level that you can't discuss politics on a zelda classic discord server?
It is shameful and disgusting, and I do hope you understand that I say this with the best of intentions. You are acting like dictators of a community that should belong to all of us.
Online communities are not democracies, they are more akin to a corporate structure, with a clear owner.
That being said, staff is acting anything but dictators, which makes me question if you even understand the implication of what you're posing, or if you're just doing it to cause drama in bad faith. Not only have they encouraged discussion, they have even decided to listen to feedback and make changes to the new rules based on a clear demand to keep CE.
Furthermore, none of the discussion on the rules have been shut down by staff, which would be like, a baseline requirement to even argue dictator like behavior? Frankly, almost all active members of the community have voiced their concerns and opinions, and even more so in private. If anything, this should be celebrated as a good way to handle the discourse, flinging insults at staff is not a mature or adult way to handle the discourse.
You should see yourself as custodians, because that's what you are. This isn't your forum, you have inhereted it. Realize that what you are in control over, is not just your property, it is the place where many of us got to know each other. It is not just a community in the sense that it is a forum on the internet, this place is filled with real people some of which have spent more than half their lives in this place, and many of us have grown up together. And you need to let us continue to have conversations like normal human beings, and shutting down currentevents is the opposite of that.
So..., you mean to argue that we should keep CE because it's a huge cornerstone in what keeps this community together? I feel like this is projection, there is certainly been an outcry about it's removal so a lot of people want it, but if you want to converse like a human being, let's be realistic here; The pureZC community has dwindled over the years, it's kinda natural, it happens.
But there is one thing that brought people here, and I would argue has kept people here: Zelda Classic itself.
Now of course, it's not just the program itself, that alone don't keep people here forever, a lot of people decided to stick around cause they made friends and embedded themselves as a part of the community as a whole. But these things? They would survive CE being removed, that discussion would move elsewhere, and a few who only stuck around because of it might leave. But I'd argue that's a small portion, it's not a huge cornerstone of what makes up this community, I think that paints a poor image of everything this community has achieved over the years.
I simply cannot overstate how much and how deeply this hurt me, and I know I am not alone in that.
For your TL;DR, I'll give you my own: If you truly feel so deeply hurt by this, then put thoughts towards all the users that have in the past been deeply hurt things as they are currently, and consider being more accepting of change and work with staff to make this place less hurtful, rather than insisting they are just wrong and targeting you personally. They are not dictators, they are more than willing to listen.
<--->
Welp, than more shit happened while typing. *shrug*
Onwards we go! Part 2 coming soon~
Edited by Mani Kanina, 13 March 2020 - 04:03 PM.
This topic is locked
