120 replies to this topic

[Chris Miller]

Just for the record, I don't personally give two shits what anyone thinks of me.  I also don't actually care what anyone gets up to in their personal life.  However, I also hold no regard for any "protected class" of people.  If I'm capable of getting someone's panties into a twist simply with a shitpost in a Discord chat, then how in the blue hell do any of you manage to get through your days without hyperventilating?

[David]

I'm gonna be a bit quick here since I need to head out (well I needed to head out a bit ago but stuck around longer). Look guys, we're not going to get anywhere if we all keep getting heated and frustrated over things over and over again. I think ShadowTiger hit the nail right on the head. We're really close to finding the best answer for what we need to do regarding the Discord server. I really want to stick with trying to get to that goal. We all want to make things better and get to that stage. I know people feel very strongly about some stuff but I grow weary of this feeling like we are constantly taking a few steps forward and then taking a few steps back. Let's keep the nature of thread towards taking those steps forward, all right?

[David]

I'm really sorry for doing this, but we're gonna lock this topic for a few hours. Things have gotten a bit too heated and we think everyone needs some time to sit back, cool down a bit, and recollect our thoughts on these sensitive subjects. It pains me to see things be so intense and so I think this will allow everyone to settle down and come back into this feeling a little better.

[Haylee]

I wanna start off this thread re-opening with this, a spreadsheet I made in my spare time of the opinions of a number of users in the simple form of 3 Yes/No/Neutral questions relating to the situation regarding #currentevents: https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

(This only contains everyone I could get at the time. The ones I didn't were either busy or I assumed to be asleep. Also, this isn't a user vote or anything of the sort, this is just a personal survey I made to get the point I want to make across.)

 

I ask that you don't debate anybody for their opinions regarding the first question, I think enough of that has happened, quite frankly. What I really feel we need to focus on is how almost everyone agrees on one thing: Changes need be made regarding the CE chat itself. The opt-in stuff is a lot more subjective, but that's the point of the discussion, after all.

 

I'll give my feelings on the opt-in system in a later, since I don't want this to be a wall of text so long that nobody wants to read it. The reason I gathered this list is that I feel like we're all on the same page regarding CE needing to be changed, and because of that, I think debating people about whether they felt the channel was a problem or not is a moot point, because they still agree it needs changes. What those changes exactly are is most certainly what needs figuring out, and I'd like for us to focus on that, moving forward.

 

If you feel that the change is unnecessary, or hell, think that that's something that already existed, great, nothing's really changing for you, then. Just continue discussing normally if you think that's the case, I think establishing these things now, even if they were implied before, or not as well stated before is important. This applies to all of us: let's start again with a bit more civility, people.

[Chris]

First thing first, some posts like the one of Nathaniel and Anthus convinced me that CE has great value, so I admit that I was biased because I myself left after feeling too uncomfortable.

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In regards of supposedly transphobic discussions, I actually can understand the statements of Aevin and Russ or rather the staff somewhat. I personally have quite a lot of trust in the staff and this thread alone is proof enough that the staff work isn't as easy as some people in here suggest.

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I love Robin (since he was brought up already) and how he speaks his mind freely and wants people to question themself and society. It's one of the things I miss the most. And I know very well that Robin is not transphobic in the slightest.

Still, there aren't many things that are as difficult to accept as being transgender or having a different sexuality. And I can easily imagine how a discussion of the kind I had with Robin before can be highly distressing for some people that are struggling to accept themself.

And in that case the opt-in idea of CE isn't really a solution to that. While things like politics also influence your life, your sexuality is something very personal. I think there are quite a few people that love political discussions and CE in general, but feel highly distressed about their own sexuality discussed.

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I assume that's what staff means by LGBT inclusivity. I at least can't really see why some people feel so accused here. And even more so, since this whole thread is about people not wanting their free speech to restricted, quite a few posts seem to want to restict what staff is allowed to say...

[Joelmacool]

I'd like to point out that the opt-in does seem to be the best solution to this, while also allowing some regulation in the new serious channel. Perhaps, since the forum itself has been slowing down in terms of activity (excluding this thread, of course), it'd be a good idea to combine both the Forum and Database Staff roles? This would then allow for a new staff role to be created, perhaps one that specifically focuses on PureZC Discord issues. Right now I'm just giving a suggestion as to what could be done, but ultimately it's up to the staff.

Though, I'd like to reiterate what I'm in support of:
- I would say that the opt-in system would work for both the people who want to keep currentevents and for those who wish to remove it entirely. Since those who don't opt-in would be unable to see the discussions it'd be as if it doesn't exist. To those who do opt-in, they chose to see the discussions that would take place and so if they don't like the opinions being shared they could either respond in order to share their own perspective or just decide to opt-out altogether.
- Clearly, if the staff do decide to go for the opt-in system, regulation of the channel would still be needed. I'd suggest a few rules in order to prevent discussions from becoming heated, such as "respect other opinions" or "be civil when discussing sensitive topics". It's clear that regulation is the optimal solution to this as while it can be true that currentevents has had some extremely questionable discussions/arguments, most of the time it actually is quite civil. I don't need to give examples of this, as you can practically see the civility every day. Regulation would mean that, when discussions do take that questionable turn, discord staff can quickly intervene and handle the situation effectively.

I know most of this has already been stated, but I felt the need to explain what my thoughts are in the situation.

If a vote were to come, I'd suggest it to be among PureZC Discord users, since they would probably know best (since they are the ones to actually talk in the server). If not, perhaps a vote among all staff would suffice.

Edited by Joelmacool, 15 March 2020 - 08:56 AM.

[Mani Kanina]

I really don't see any value in having the channel be opt-in to even see it, if the content in the channel is not of questionable morality to begin with hiding it seems entirely unnecessary. You can very easily remove notifications from individual channels if you care less for them on discord.

 

If anything, I feel making it opt-in will only cause more problems further down the line, with potentially bad content gets a free pass, cause, hey, you don't need to be there, right? It could also potentially just foster even more schisms between the userbase, as it will now grow even further into a sub-community. So personally I see little value in making it opt-in to even see it, while I also see it potentially causing further issues.

You kinda have to consider that it's not about making the current CE channel opt-in, it's about making the future, more moderated one so; which is a very different thing entirely.

[Rambly]

I mean honestly to expand on Lunaria's point here, won't making it opt-in risk making it an echo chamber.  If that's something people are concerned about

 

I know I voted yes on the thingymajig and I'd still probably vote yes but uh

 

That's a point worth considering

Like I'm not asking that question to Poke The Bear Again.  I'm asking that question because like if most of the people who would choose to opt-in share similar beliefs and values, it's just going to be a place where everyone shares the same opinions.  Like I'm legit concerned that it's not really going to solve the real heart of the problem

Edited by Rambly, 15 March 2020 - 09:18 AM.

[Shane]

I trust the mods to keep a opt-in channel moderated and as long as it's not radical or extreme, I think the echo chamber isn't a major concern, but I can see how it is one regardless. Participation is encouraged I imagine, and things will be respectful regardless if your opinion is unpopular because things will be overseen better than they were before. I have high hopes the staff can manage this and I think the lack of trust is moot when they've expressed commitment to look over the server better since the OP which shows to me things will work out better than before. I imagine this will operate more like the Mature Discussion sub forum that was opt-in, and seemed fine and moderated well which was closed due to Discord taking over activity.

[Aevin]

I had an unusual experience yesterday. I made what I thought was a thoughtful, genuine post aimed at reconciliation and moving things in a positive direction. It seemed to work. Seemed to be received well even by Robin, one of the ones who seemed most hurt by this whole situation. I hopped on a plane across the country, figuring I'd reply later in the day.

 

Oh boy, did that not work out ...

 

I know this is not possible for everyone, but since I was in no way a participant in what happened after my last post, I'm just going to hit the rewind button and try to move back to the productive place we were at yesterday. I'd invite those who are able to join me in that effort. Here's the post I would have made yesterday.

Sorry about my tone in earlier posts, but as I believe is clear to everyone at this point, this bothered me a great deal, and it was hard to contain the anger and confusion I've felt about this over the last few days.

I accept your apology, and appreciate you being respectful. While I'm not in agreement with everything in your post, I can understand why you were upset, and I think we're both aimed at a similar goal, so I'd like to focus on that commonality instead of our differences.

 

One difficult thing here is that there are some legitimately bad actors in this situation who want nothing more than to see things burn. Every time things explode again, they relish in it. These people have no care for the community and love the chaos. It's tricky sometimes picking those people out from the ones who are genuine and invested. For my part, I think it's a better tactic to take people at face value and assume the best of them. Occasionally it backfires, but the alternative is too depressing for me. But I hope that everyone can forgive others for getting frustrated and having trouble trusting some others.

 

I learned a long time ago that when it comes to Discord, nothing you say is private. No matter how private the group seems to be, the stuff that's said seems to always come out. So for my part, I try to remain respectful in all groups I'm a part of, and I would recommend others do the same. It's difficult to take people as genuine when they seem to be participating in really destructive conversations "behind our backs." I'm also a bit frustrated with a double standard here, where some people can say utterly horrible things, but we're expected to read their best intentions and give them the benefit of the doubt, but here, a bit of poor phrasing is enough for people to want to nail us to the wall.

 

Anyway ... I don't want to dwell on the drama side of things. I'm not sure how much more discussion we need on the matter, but of course, anyone is welcome to give their input. I think what really needs to happen is the staff need to draft a set of rules to accompany our current plan, run it by the rest of you for feedback, and then take the steps needed to put this all in place. I'm thinking we'll try to get to that tomorrow. I'd recommend everyone who's feeling upset with stuff just step away and take a deep breath. I'd very much like to focus on productive policy stuff from here on out.
 

[Russ]

One thing I want to add to the opt-in channel discussion: We are certainly open to giving this a shot, but that's no guarantee it'll last. Shane brought up comparisons to Mature Discussion, but Debate Room is a better analogy. We had the DR open for years as an opt-in, tightly regulated forum for handling sensitive conversations. And it worked. But it had a fatal flaw. The staff got exhausted dealing with. And when we got too tired to regulate it properly, it all began to fall apart, and we ended up having to close it.

I bring this up because an opt-in currentevents still has the potential to go the same way. At the end of the day, we're a small staff team, and we're only human. A lot of the posts in this thread advocating for such a system seem to assume "Well just let the staff regulate it better, easy peasy." It's not exactly easy. We've had a few former staff comment on that actually. It's a difficult and demanding job.

So what's the point in this? As has been mentioned before, we're gonna be hiring new staff in the coming days. Want to see an opt-in currentevents succeed? Apply for the job and be willing to chip in.

[Rambly]

One difficult thing here is that there are some legitimately bad actors in this situation who want nothing more than to see things burn. Every time things explode again, they relish in it. These people have no care for the community and love the chaos. It's tricky sometimes picking those people out from the ones who are genuine and invested. For my part, I think it's a better tactic to take people at face value and assume the best of them. Occasionally it backfires, but the alternative is too depressing for me. But I hope that everyone can forgive others for getting frustrated and having trouble trusting some others.

I mean, it's obvious who those bad actors are.  Particularly when they say as much.  I seriously feel that if these and the people egging them on were just banned or reprimanded, everything would be pretty peachy.  I seriously feel that this tiny handful of people is responsible for creating as much discord (literally) in the community as there has been, and I (still) seriously feel like trying to refocus the conversation back to the #currentevents revamp is sidestepping the deeper, more fundamental problem.  Maybe it should go into another thread; I don't know.  But it's still a discussion that needs to be had.
 
Look, I know that the truth is depressing to you.  I get that.  It's depressing to me, too.  I like to see the best in everyone and I'd rather, really rather people be able to talk their differences out.  But the truth is just that some people just aren't very good.  Some people really, deeply, genuinely do not give a shit about other people, some people really do genuinely deeply hate certain kinds of people and just want to see them suffer, and no amount of talking to them and trying to empathize with them will get them to change.  There's not going to be an impetus for them to change unless they, internally, want to change.  When you've tried talking things out, that's all you can really do, and the rest is out of your hands.  And even if you don't want to fully admit that, well, there's no reason to let these people continue to do damage to the community in the interim.
 
Take people at their face value by default, sure.  Trust is important.  But when you see another face, and you really can't rationalize it as anything but that, you shouldn't pretend it doesn't exist.  That's just stuffing the problem into the closet and ignoring it.  You can accept that occasionally there are people that are going to cause harm and to deal with them in a decisive manner, and you can, at the same time, accept that you wish they were better and still want to be able to see them change for the better.  Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

[Shane]

For what it's worth, no one is saying your job is easy, Russ, it's not a position to be envied. I think it's nice though we have a staff that does give a damn what the community thinks, and that the community cares for the staff enough to be vocal, even if both sides can be stubborn from time to time. I think reaching a compromise is proof this can be pulled off, I'm sure you'll find great additions to help make it happen. I think with any concerns at this rate, we'll cross those bridges when we get there. At least the community can't say yous didn't try.

[Avaro]

 

One difficult thing here is that there are some legitimately bad actors in this situation who want nothing more than to see things burn. Every time things explode again, they relish in it. These people have no care for the community and love the chaos.

 

Literally who?

[Jenny]

If you want people to move on, stop making vague accusatory statements. Your own lack of transparency keeps hurting you here.

 

It's equivalent to continually poking a bear and then being surprised when it retaliates.

Edited by Buddy, 15 March 2020 - 05:17 PM.