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#46 Anarchy_Balsac

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 09:00 PM

And yes, the plastic shell housing the PCB has very little to do with the capacity of the device. They can make it huge but it won't affect the capacity at all. NES cartridge PCB's are roughly half the height of the actual NES cartridge shell (I dunno why, likely aesthetic reasons/distance themselves from the Sega/competitor cartridge design aesthetic?).

 

Correct, but obviously, a bigger housing can house bigger circuits, I guess I should have been ultra-specific, but didn't think it necessary.

 

 

And the reason consoles have lower stats than PC's isn't because DRM or magic proprietary stuff, but because of the time it takes to release dev kits to lots of developers, hype and market the console, scheduele a release date, then release.  In said time, PC's WILL catch up and surpass, and that's not accounting for the years that the console sticks around.



#47 Nicholas Steel

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 09:42 PM

And the reason consoles have lower stats than PC's isn't because DRM or magic proprietary stuff, but because of the time it takes to release dev kits to lots of developers, hype and market the console, scheduele a release date, then release.  In said time, PC's WILL catch up and surpass, and that's not accounting for the years that the console sticks around.

True, devs have to have actually made games for the console's Launch Day and the hardware design would need to be no longer in flux in order for the game devs to actually develop a game for it, so the hardware is likely 1 or 2 years old before it sees the light of day/is why launch titles can suck ass.


Edited by Nicholas Steel, 22 June 2016 - 07:34 AM.


#48 Anarchy_Balsac

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 10:59 PM

True, devs have to have actually made games for the console's Launch Day and the hardware design would need to be no longer in flux in order for the game devs to actually develop a game for it, bso the hardware is likely 1 or 2 years old before it sees the light of day/is why launch titles can suck ass.

 

Exactly my point, which is why you can't compare PC specs to console spec and blame it on proprietary stuff.

 

But more importantly, I was also pointing out the fallacy of judging the specs of a TINY cartidge, and saying a bigger one would be equally as limited, since it would obviously have more than just added plastic (a ridiculous notion I can't believe people were saying).



#49 NoeL

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 03:49 AM

This will of course make the games a little more expensive, since that would lead to more parties making a profit off of the games (Nintendo, stores, and third party developers).

One potential problem is that up until the N64 third party developers had to buy the cartridges directly from Nintendo if they wanted to sell their game - something they just had to suck up until the Sony Playstation hit. Given the option of having 10x the memory and ridiculously cheaper production third parties migrated to Sony in droves, leaving the N64 with a comparatively tiny, expensive library.
 
I don't know if Nintendo kept up the practice of selling blank carts to third party GBA/DS/3DS devs (I assume they would've), but if Nintendo decides to go back to/continue with this practice for the NX they might struggle to garner interest from third parties. They've been dominant in the handheld market so publishers will still suck it up to get a game on the 3DS, but for a console release I can't see why ANY developer would choose to pay MORE to develop for Nintendo rather than just developing for Sony/Microsoft.
 
This is where Nintendo has failed for decades now. They still haven't realised it's not 1989 anymore. Nintendo doesn't dominate gaming, and they can't continue to do as they please and expect third parties to just eat it "because they're Nintendo". I have no problem with them going back to carts in theory, but if they don't make it enticing to developers then no one will go for it and the system will flop. The NX carts have to be as cheap, if not cheaper, to produce than a bluray disc. I don't know if they're at that stage yet - they're smaller and likely use less plastic, but they're also more complicated and will thus likely have a larger failure rate. If the carts can't be produced at an equivalent price Nintendo has to offer to make up that cost somehow, otherwise again, third parties won't bother. They would only intentionally eat those extra costs if Nintendo became market leaders again, and there's no chance in hell that'll happen without third party support.
 
So come on Nintendo, you stingy bastards. Open up those fat Japanese wallets and throw some devs some of that sweet, sweet yen. It'll pay off big time.
 

The size of the plastic has nothing to do with it; it's all about how much memory they shoved into it. The NES was supersized for no reason, and actually a downgrade of the original Famicom.

It wasn't supersized "for no reason", it was redesigned to look/sound more like a VCR because following the crash of '83 "video game" was a cancerous word. They figured no one would buy a "video game console", but an "entertainment system" on the other hand could sell. So they took the Famicom, stripped it of its colour to make it look less like a toy and more like a piece of home entertainment, made it a front-loader like a VCR instead of a top-loader like the Atari, made the game cartridges more similar in size to video cassettes (people would even wrongly call them "Nintendo tapes") and called it an "entertainment system". There was no technical reason the NES/games were as large as they were (though I think some of the later games had boards that filled up the entire cartridge, so good they had the extra space. Maybe it WAS foresight?) but it's wrong to say there was "no reason".

 

Regarding capacity, Nicholas Steel has already said why proprietary carts are generally poorly spec'd compared to generic brands. It has nothing to do with audio fidelity, it has nothing to do with the hardware needing more RAM - a 4GB flash drive today can do everything a 4GB DVD can do, and usually faster too. The only reason current propriety carts (like 3DS carts for example) are "weak" is because there's no NEED for them to be any better (from Nintendo's POV). People will buy them because they have to. They don't need to be bigger or faster because they're not competing with anything.

 

But again, if the NX is going to try to compete with the PS4/XB1 then the cartridges it uses - whether proprietary or generic - have to be competitive with the standard for those machines (which I think is Bluray, at least 50GB). The 8GB 3DS cart won't do, but a 128GB NX cart should be fine (again, as long as Nintendo makes it just as cheap for third parties to publish on carts).


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#50 SyrianBallaS

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 04:54 AM

Believe it or not, portable gaming is just more profitable. Not many people buy consoles, except if it's for a couple games or something. Most people I know would rather just get games on PC since it's highly likely to be your money's worth in respect to consoles. 

 

The last time I can remember, at least where I am, when console gaming was a thing was when I was in elementary school. 

 

The PS4 and XBox One are pretty much PCs that look like consoles.



#51 Anthus

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 09:19 PM

I'm almost convinced the NX's draw will be its portability along side functioning as a console. If they use cartridges, they could fit a lot of stuff on a game boy sized cart. If there is a portable controller though, I suspect you'll have to transfer games to it like on some sort of proprietary format which might interface between the console and controller.

How much would this cost, and how practical is it? I would bet they've been doing years of research in this, and the Wii U was kind of a baby step. /wild speculation

Edit: Dark Speculation: What if your phone is the controller?? Ohhhh nooooo.

#52 SyrianBallaS

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 03:10 AM

I ain't gonna trash talk about the NX since I don't really know much about it, however, one major buzz kill Nintendo has repeatedly done was forcing the gamer(s) to buy extra accessories for core functionality for some games.



#53 Anarchy_Balsac

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 07:03 PM

So a recent statement by Nintendo has convinced me that 2nd hand is the way to go, if I buy this at all.



#54 Anthus

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 08:09 PM

So a recent statement by Nintendo has convinced me that 2nd hand is the way to go, if I buy this at all.


What was the statement? I'm curious.

#55 DashSim

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Posted 26 June 2016 - 03:15 PM

PS4's Blu-ray discs can hold about 50GB. I don't find it inconceivable that Nintendo could find a company that's developed and is willing to offer them sufficiently inexpensive ROM chips to use in their NX game carts that roughly matches that capacity.

They would still be more expensive to produce than discs - there's no getting around that - but there's other advantages to not using discs that will negate that cost to a degree which may or may not make them viable for use as the standard game media for NX.
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#56 Cukeman

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 07:51 PM

Discs are used because they cost less than a buck each. Basically anything else is going to be more expensive, that's why I have doubts about a disc substitute. I'd prefer digital downloads over discs. The only problem with that is when content is no longer hosted you need another form of access.


Edited by Cukeman, 29 June 2016 - 01:42 AM.

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#57 kurt91

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 08:26 PM

What was the statement? I'm curious.

Here, I'll just link the article:

 

http://www.escapistm...-Watergate-Joke



#58 Tree

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 10:04 PM

Here, I'll just link the article:

 

http://www.escapistm...-Watergate-Joke

Wait... what?? I don't get it. What does this have to do with NX, and how are people interpreting a joke in that manner at all? I am so flabbergasted right now...



#59 DashSim

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 01:23 AM

Honestly, there's not really any particularly strong reason to think they're ditching discs for carts unless we're also working under the assumption that they're going full tilt towards the console and portable having a shared library. The benefits of carts over discs probably isn't significant enough on its own to make that switch, but (in my opinion) absolutely worth it if they're going after the full shared library and all the advantages that could bring.

I'm really really hoping it'll have a shared library!

#60 Anarchy_Balsac

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 01:28 AM

Honestly, there's not really any particularly strong reason to think they're ditching discs for carts unless we're also working under the assumption that they're going full tilt towards the console and portable having a shared library. The benefits of carts over discs probably isn't significant enough on its own to make that switch, but (in my opinion) absolutely worth it if they're going after the full shared library and all the advantages that could bring.

I'm really really hoping it'll have a shared library!

 

If we're talking DVD's or CD's, both of which can be resurfaced when damaged, I'd say you have a point.  But Blu-Ray, which current technology all but requires, can NOT be.  To put this another way, if it's damaged, that's it, your game is fucked, the company MAY replace it, or they may not.  And that's w/o considering load times.




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