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Major Discord Policy Changes


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#91 Rambly

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 04:18 PM

 

No slurs or hate speech. Do not hide hate speech under the pretense of humour. This is a place for people of all backgrounds.

Perhaps something like this could work? I feel like it adequately covers my concerns in a concise way, and doesn't call out any specific groups as special. But the key would really be in moderating it appropriately. How do you guys feel about something like this?

 

That sounds great to me. It's short, it pretty much covers all the bases, and it's specific enough to make it clear what type of behavior is disallowed to almost anyone, while being broad enough to not allow any obviously bad-faith behavior.  As long as the moderators can agree to to enforce said rule, then I don't see any problems with it.
 

And Rambly, I'm sorry I didn't further respond to what you said, but that is out of respect of Aevin and not getting caught up on an original post which is no longer 100% of what is happening. I think some of what I said was addressed since then, and I feel that a direct response will further derail the current intentions of this topic. I think Aevin cleared some of that up with his recent post anyway, and it was more of a concern of what it might become if we aren't careful about it.

That's cool, I understand. Aevin's recent post pretty much addressed any leftover concerns I would have had as well, so anything else from me in this thread from this point on would just be quibbling anyway.



#92 Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 04:58 PM

I think this sounds like a good compromise, though I would like to go into something that still does bother me, and makes me concerned about what kinds of things might be viewed as problematic still. This is just caution, I am not necessarily expecting that this would happen, I am more so concerned that it might, given that there is still some confusion here from my perspective.

And there are some people who feel it's already like that, who are totally happy with the current status quo. And I get that. They're comfortable, and to them, mixing things up has a big possibility of just making things worse for them. But there are many people who aren't happy with the current state of things. This includes me, Russ, and some other staff members, some members who have left, and some who have been active members through all of this. I don't think it's cool to imply that these people's feelings don't matter, because they're not active in Discord or the community at large. It's circular. They're not active because of the state of the community, but their opinions are invalid because they left? And, given that some active members felt passionately enough about the state of things to consider leaving, well ... I'd turn that around. These people also felt strongly enough about the community that they'd rather leave than see it become something they hate. I do think that the opinions of these people matter, and should not be invalidated because they haven't been around for awhile. They're members, too, and represent a group with an interest in the welfare of the community, and deserve to be heard.

I agree that it is unfortunate that people have left this forum because they for various reasons no longer like the atmosphere, but I do take issue with the underlying implication here still. Yes, people have left because they are not satisfied with Pure's atmosphere. Yes we should not diminish anyone's experience. But when someone's experience of other people conflicts with the experience of others, one should not automatically assume that the experiences of both parties are in line with what has actually happened.

You refer to discussions where people have supposedly suggested that trans people don't even exist. This does not mesh well with what I have seen in currentevents or Pure at large, and I wonder what specific conversations you are thinking of when you say this. This I feel has to be cleared up, in a very specific manner, and you guys have to be open to the idea that yes, your interpretations of those cases may indeed be worthy of criticism - because again, me and a lot of other people completely reject the idea that currentevents or Pure in general has ever been a place where being disrespectful and mean to other people has been acceptable. And seeing as I have been involved in some discussions surrounding gender-related issues myself, I am a little concerned that some of those may be part of what is seen as problematic here, and if that is the case, then hopefully you are able to relate when I say that it would bother me greatly to hear that conversations I have had, are being seen as disrespectful or hateful or anything along those lines - because that does not align with my own experience, and my own intent. And had I seen any discussions like the kind you are painting a picture of, that is something I too would take major issue with, so again I cannot overstate how confusing it is to me that you feel this way about this community.

 

Sometimes we make interpretations of things other people say or do, that simply are not fair (I am speaking from experience, as you are well aware. :P ). And I don't mean to be rude, but you guys have been doing that a fair bit lately, with the more recent example being the joke where the mechanics of the joke itself was misunderstood to the point where the meaning of it, and the target of its humor, was seen as something other than what was intended. I don't want to speak too much for the guy in question here but I am pretty confident that the point was not 'trans people are so crazy that they should get their heads chopped off'. The way I read it, the joke was mocking people who would be willing to chop their own head off as a medical practice. That may or may not be ignorant, but it doesn't target trans people, it targets a hypothetical patient of an absolutely absurd medical proposition (by today's standards at least, who knows how that might change), so to say that it is transphobic or hateful is simply incorrect. (To anyone reading this without context, trust me, I get how it sounds. I'm not going to provide context for the sake of an attempt at brevity, but if you're curious, hit me up in private.)

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse but like I'm saying, I am concerned that what you are really referring to here, are multiple situations just like this one, where you have misunderstood what is being said, to the point where you're reading it as something it is not. And it may very well be misplaced concern, but given that this has happened multiple times in the past, including just a few days ago, I do think it is necessary to discuss this.

 

Sorry about my tone in earlier posts, but as I believe is clear to everyone at this point, this bothered me a great deal, and it was hard to contain the anger and confusion I've felt about this over the last few days.


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#93 Russ

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 05:37 PM

I'm sorry Robin, but I'm not gonna sit here and listen to your attempts at misleading us. I've seen this argument pop in multiple times in this thread: that there was no true ill will towards trans people going on in current events, and the staff simply misinterpreted good natured jokes. Trying to argue that "No, Tim saying they should forget to put a trans person's head back on isn't actually a joke about beading them" is a pretty shoddy argument to begin with. But thankfully, we don't have to spend much time dwelling on that, because we know exactly what kind of person made the joke.

agn_disco_stuff_11.png

Oh, but I'm sure these wonderful people casually tossing around slurs and anti-LGBT commentary truly had the best of intents are heart. Clearly, this was just a misunderstanding on the staff's part. After all, how could anyone accuse such paragons of respect and understanding of making a transphobic joke?

This whole situation is as transparent as could possibly be. And you know this. I'd like to point out that you're in that screenshot as well. You're completely aware of this, and yet here you are, engaging in bad faith arguments with us. Cut the bullshit, Robin. You and I both know full well that "joke" was exactly what it sounded like. And you and I both know that this is the kind of attitude that's been allowed to fester unchecked in #currentevents.

This entire thread has been filled with arguments that the staff has simply misinterpreted the intent of comments made in #currentevents, and we've been painted as bullies out to stifle free speech and ruin good, harmless joking. Such arguments are grossly misled at best, and outright deceit at worst. And frankly, I'm sick of it. I'm tired of seeing vitriol disguised as shitposting, and I'm tired of our server being a home for it. Above all, I'm disappointed that such a large number of people have fallen for this act. I know at this point I'm simply saying, far less eloquently, what Aevin has already said, but do you really have so little trust in us, PureZC? I consider the majority of people who have reacted with skepticism in this thread to be friends. Do you really not know us any better than this?

Perhaps banning debates wholesale isn't the best approach. Perhaps an opt-in channel would be a good solution that pleases everyone. I've seen some good points made, and I'm not here to argue those. But I'm not gonna sit here and be told that everything was perfectly fine before, and the staff are simply overreacting to a non-existent problem. As it stands now, #currentevents, in addition to whatever positives might come from it, serves as a gathering place for bigots to mock minority groups and deflect any criticism by claiming it's all in jest and we're just reading it wrong. This absolutely will not be allowed to continue.

 

Edit: For the record, Robin and I spoke after this and the next few posts were made and have come to an understanding.


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#94 Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 06:01 PM

I do have so little trust in you yes, when you are constantly assuming the worst of people because you do not like the words that people around them use. I can't control what people say, but I do know what I believe, and you're telling me that what I believe is something other than what I believe and suggesting that I am trying to deceive anyone. That is ridiculous. I will admit that I let the anger get to me in earlier posts, but my most recent one is one that I spent time to ensure it could explain why it is I am concerned, in a way that should be easily understood even if you don't agree with the premise.

 

But you are arguing in bad faith, you're putting a label on me and my friends, and you'll note that in the image you just posted, neither me nor him is saying anything that you can reasonably described as transphobic. What I am seeing, is frustration that stems from not being heard, but I cannot fucking control what people around me say or do, and that goes for everyone else as well. This is incredibly unreasonable, it is incredibly unfair, and it is incredibly offensive.


Edited by Migokalle, 14 March 2020 - 06:01 PM.

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#95 Rambly

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 06:05 PM

Russ, while I really do agree that there are people in that conversation that really are engaging in this thread in bad faith, I don't really see a huge problem with the way in which Robin is engaging in those logs.

 

I don't think Robin's necessarily a bad guy.   In that log it looks like he's just expressing frustration that the channel he enjoyed being a part of is getting closed.


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#96 Haylee

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 06:05 PM

Russ, with all due respect, we're at the point in the thread where people are ADMITTING there was a problem. The only thing that screenshot says about Robin is that he was clearly pissed yesterday, which he not only apologized to me personally for last night (Which I even sent you and the rest of the staff a screenshot of), and he even acknowledged in his latest post. I'm not gonna sit here and debate about the other peeps, they're a completely different topic altogether but to look at other people's post and assume Robin's post is in bad faith just because it just so happened to be in the same logs is fucking silly.

 

This thread has become infinitely more civil since this, let's not be disingenuous here for the sake of making things worse. As of yesterday and today, nobody has said there wasn't a problem, the whole point of the latest posts has been to acknowledge that and come to a compromise.


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#97 Nate

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 06:20 PM

Did you really post a log of other people being jackasses and use it as proof Robin is acting in bad faith? He just seemed disheartened, wasn't even talking shit like the picture you're seemingly trying to paint. Are you serious? I'm for giving you the benefit of the doubt, but it seems incredibly in poor taste and unprofessional. To top it off, that whole response seems more fitting for a private conversation. Nothing to do with the thread as a whole, does it? Set an example. As an admin.

 

Not trying to be a jerk or call you out, Russ, in fact, I've had your back on this. But your last post put a bad taste in my mouth and I think this whole thread is becoming derailed in a piss poor attempt to play victim. That's directed at both of you, not just Russ.

 

Edit: For some reason thought Russ' post was Aevin. Edited to reflect the proper user.


Edited by Nate, 14 March 2020 - 06:24 PM.

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#98 Deedee

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 06:24 PM

I really don't think anyone here disagrees that CurrentEvents is a toxic cesspool as it stands, and it certainly, at the very least, needs to be removing the people arguing/posting transphobic shit in bad faith. Probably should stop bringing it up as an argument since everyone is in agreement with you there.

Also, as disgusting as a certain user is, I don't see what tim is doing wrong by simply being in proximity to them. I'm not going to judge what he sees in the guy, even if I think said guy is absolutely abhorrent. Ain't a crime to hang with someone.


Edited by Dimi, 14 March 2020 - 06:25 PM.

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#99 Nate

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 06:26 PM

I really don't think anyone here disagrees that CurrentEvents is a toxic cesspool as it stands, and it certainly, at the very least, needs to be removing the people arguing/posting transphobic shit in bad faith. Probably should stop bringing it up.

Also, as disgusting as a certain user is, I don't see what tim is doing wrong by simply being in proximity to them. I'm not going to judge what he sees in the guy, even if I think said guy is absolutely abhorrent. Ain't a crime to hang with someone.

 

This. At the end of the day, people are just pushing for clean up and ground rules. Maybe some extra measures like opt-in. I'm kinda tired of this being about LGBT this and LGBT that. Nobody in this thread has any issue with LGBT inclusiveness. I thought the direction this thread was headed toward a peaceful resolution. I thought we were done with trying to pick apart at people's character and grouping people into us and them.


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#100 Russ

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 06:31 PM

People seem to be missing my main point here. Multiple people have said "Nobody disagrees #currentevents was bad, why are you bringing it up?" I'm bringing it up because Robin, not two posts ago, argued that nothing bad went down there. If I may quote...
 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse but like I'm saying, I am concerned that what you are really referring to here, are multiple situations just like this one, where you have misunderstood what is being said, to the point where you're reading it as something it is not. And it may very well be misplaced concern, but given that this has happened multiple times in the past, including just a few days ago, I do think it is necessary to discuss this.


So please, don't act like I dragged up an ancient topic from nowhere.

Now on to the second point. Again, people seem to have misunderstood me. My point is not to say "Look, Robin was mad in a screenshot!" My point is to show that he clearly knows the kind of people who have been posting the contest in question in #currentevents. For him to try argue there's no transphobic intent when he can clearly them, with his own two eyes, the character of these people, is by definition a bad faith argument.
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#101 Nathaniel

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 06:32 PM

And for the record.  That took place in AGN chat, just to be clear.  As we see, Chris Miller is in red lettering, as an admin over at AGN.  None of this occurred in PureZC chat, although you can judge the character of individuals however you may please.  But do we really need to take something that occurred on another server and spill it over onto here?  We would not advocate other members doing the same thing.


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#102 Nate

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 06:33 PM

And for the record.  That took place in AGN chat, just to be clear.

 

Wow, full context is important. Thanks for that.


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#103 Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 06:36 PM

There is no transphobic intent in the posts I am defending, Russ. The fact that you are unwilling to listen to my reasoning as to why your interpretation of that is in error, just showcases how incredibly bullheaded you're being about this. You're convinced your interpretation is right, but I have something you don't, and that is a many many years long personal relationship with these people. You simply don't have that. Unless you believe I secretly hate trans people too, then you may do well to listen when I am telling you that your interpretation is off. Because it is. And no amount of you saying 'no no it isn't, look here's other people being dicks' is going to change that.

 

I stand by every argument I have given you. Every damn one. The fact that you are standing by your own, is appalling.


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#104 Jenny

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 06:45 PM

I have to wonder if we're even reading the same thread at this point... As people have already pointed out, things were headed in a productive direction so to decide to post this now reads as incredibly tone-deaf.

 

The fact that you have to keep reiterating the problem when nearly everyone here has acknowledged it and were working towards fixing it is upsetting. To have points that I myself have already made, ones that I can tell you personally that a lot of people agreed with, regurgitated to us and for you to then act like they weren't something people already agreed with, like we weren't already past that phase of the conversation is incredibly upsetting and invalidating to me.

 

I have to wonder if you even consulted with the other staff before deciding to post this, because I'm rather certain if you had they would be strongly against you doing so. You've both ignored the causes for concern I and others brought up, and given them more validity in a way.

 

 

 

But do you really have so little trust in us, PureZC?

 

Yes, we do. Things like this don't help.

 

 

Do you really not know us any better than this?

 

No, we do not. 


Edited by Yoshi, 14 March 2020 - 07:34 PM.

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#105 ShadowTiger

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Posted 14 March 2020 - 06:49 PM

Okay, I can tell this is going nowhere.

 

Why are people so fascinated by living in the past when there's a potentially brighter future filled with people that so very obviously all just want to get along and share some common enjoyment?

 

If anyone wants to help add their thoughts to a potential Opt-In plan for a layout or other channels, or what works and what doesn't with it, this is a fine time to do so.  Otherwise we're just beating a dead horse for really weird reasons.


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