15 replies to this topic

[CastChaos]

There's something that was bugging me for almost a year. It started to REALLY bug me in the late weeks. But now that I looked through millions of Expo archive screens and old Official Screenshot Thread screens, the realization started to psychically hurt me... nowadays quests are the same!

...well, not really, but if somebody who was here 2-3 years ago, then returning now surely would find it to be real. Seeing the old screenshots and threads, it looks like 1-2-3 years ago people put very original, extremely new things in their quests, or used weird coloring or anything such.

However, nowadays there are some "most used" tiles and ideas, while most of the tiles in each tilesets stay unused and there's rarely any out of boundaries, out of box, totally new ideas. Like people would think that being a mimic of others makes their quests good. If you disagree me now, let's see what do you think after my... examples!

-Big heads in Comix's past Kazaar quest while conversations
-Totally new style 2x2 boss looking objects in a past Expo screen
-Little, extremely tilted, indian hut style house interiors in NoeL's demo
-Radically new Link tiles in NoeL's other demo
-Various totally new interactive and decorative tiles in old (mostly unreleased) quests
-Total freeform house interiors in old DoR screens and demo
-Stunning new tile combinations (e.g. small house on the top of big house) in old screens

Seems like nowadays even the best looking "in-the-making" projects lack such twisting uniqeness. There's some good idea here, some good idea there and not new, but perfect design at other.

You say I am just babbling without me doing anything unique either? Almost. But I at least try sometimes. When starting BB, I made some house/cave wall transitions. I used it only at very few unimportant screens, but when I saw an old screen of Mr.Z with cave/dungeon wall/floor transitions, I made Steaming Systems with likewise cave/dungeon floor/cave transitions and used them at some more places, too. An idea that was made entirely by myself was to show the overworld at the side of the screens at certain house interior screens. I also think that the "main character has girlfriend" idea is "ultima unique", altough there was somebody who disagreed on me in this matter. And such things in BB.

Of course, there's still some mega uniquenesses in current projects, like the "look down to overworld" in Hylian Phoenix (by Migokalle), the first boss' tiles in the Hidden Mysteries demo (by Twilight_Knight), the functional overworld map feature in Nine Villages (by obake-san) and such. But these aren't enough. Why do nowadays questmakers fear the uncharted territories of questmaking?

Also, I KNOW that I some of what I label "mega unique" can be usual for some others and some of what I label "usual" might be mega unique for some others, but I still KNOW that I pointed out a valid problem.

Thoughts?

[Russ]

I have to agree, quests are getting repetitive. That's why I strive to make my quests stand out from all the other ones.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

Hmm... well, I do agree... Though...
We all have our own visions, right?
I mean, sure, todays quests might not do allot of unique things... atleast not considering screendesign.
I fully agree with you on this...
And thanks for mentioning my quest :3

Now, I need to protect my own quest too, really.
You haven't seen anything but the first few hour of gameplay, really... I think it's a little too early to judge it *shot*

Now, I do hope some people will kick their balls and come up with allot of unique ideas... Personally, I don't want to use stuff like big heads in dialouges...mostly because it wouldn't fit my vision... I'm going for something close to realism... not The Wind Waker 2 (pun INTENDED :3 )

But personally, I do have some ideas that I don't think people have done before... most of them are for gameplay and such, and won't be graphically noticable... but some of them will...
Now, have noone actually used the ''look down at overworld'' before? Woah!

Anyways, great thread! It's brining up a really important issue.

Oh, one more thing:
I think scripts will be the function that will spawn the most uniqueness... Heck, look at Joe's Epona... Sure, not unique when looking at other zelda games... but we're talking inside zquest here :3

[Russ]

I think scripts will be the function that will spawn the most uniqueness... Heck, look at Joe's Epona... Sure, not unique when looking at other zelda games... but we're talking inside zquest here :3

If you think Epona will set off KttH from other quests, wait unitl you see the bosses I planning, scripted by Joe of course.

[Shoelace]

Well this has always happened. But this is where designers will be tested. They need to somehow make the game unique. Make the game original. This is where the designers prove themselves. Like my HoD, looks like some Pure tileset games, but it feels way different and design was different. And EotM will be very different too which is why I don't want to show it off too much, because I don't want anyone copying the style.

[CastChaos]

Migokalle:
No, the "look down and see" wasn't used by you the first time (You do remember me showing my very old screens, don't you? ), but it's still rarely used and nice.
And of course I can speak about only what I already saw.

[Twilight Knight]

the first boss' tiles in the Hidden Mysteries demo (by Twilight_Knight)

I plan making some unique things in my quest, but I don't think they will be extravert, at least, not yet. I basically agree on all these points, most quests are to basic and look to much like every other Zelda game. I think ZC is there to create your own ideas as well, not just for making Zelda games.

[Exate]

I think people are more interested in just creating a quest these days, rather than competition. It's rather obvious that if you use a public tileset, it's not going to be "original"; I'm sure there are plenty of people aware of this.

I haven't been paying too much attention to the ZC community as of late, but from what I can gather, a lot of the quest developers these days are new and don't have much experience under their belt; It'd be wise to show some leniency for these people. They'll get better, eventually.

You also have to consider some more things... If you want to create something that stands out, it'll require a great deal of effort. Some people just don't have the motivation. Not everybody is innovative, either.

It's not as if ZC is part of the actual gaming industry; where competition matters, where you have to strive to make a good game to make some money. ZC is for fun. Competition can exist in anything, but it shouldn't have to with something as simple as a fangame.

[CastChaos]

I think people are more interested in just creating a quest these days, rather than competition. It's rather obvious that if you use a public tileset, it's not going to be "original"; I'm sure there are plenty of people aware of this.

I haven't been paying too much attention to the ZC community as of late, but from what I can gather, a lot of the quest developers these days are new and don't have much experience under their belt; It'd be wise to show some leniency for these people. They'll get better, eventually.

You also have to consider some more things... If you want to create something that stands out, it'll require a great deal of effort. Some people just don't have the motivation. Not everybody is innovative, either.

It's not as if ZC is part of the actual gaming industry; where competition matters, where you have to strive to make a good game to make some money. ZC is for fun. Competition can exist in anything, but it shouldn't have to with something as simple as a fangame.

These are the (logical and true) points for having lots of similar, "mass production on conveyor belt" quests. But then why wasn't it the same in the old times? It seems to me, 2-3 years ago 80-90% of the newbies immediately started with something new that stood out, even if the overall quality wasn't something great.
In fact, such standout doesn't require THAT much effort. I saw a Dark World tree among the old screenshots that used not mountain colours, rather one of the other gradients. Very unique, yet very easy to make. Also, some small modifications on a tile can make it look absolutely new.

So, I see how the current case is logical, but then why were the old times more unique? What is missing now? OR what was there then? Maybe the fact that ZC was new at that time. Few features, Classic feeling. Few members, small family feeling.

[Lemon]

If you'll go to the database, you'll see that this has always been true. The only thing that is new is that amount of people who are advertising them. Lately, the famous questmakers have either turned their attention to scripting, or have left also, so that what be what you're missing. If you go to the AGN scripting forum though, you'll see proof that Zc is diverse as ever as far as options go.

I'm trying to be different (but mainly just get a quest done) right now by just making my own graphic (something gameboy-esque. 4 colors) and straight forward, save the princess kinda stuff.

[Exate]

These are the (logical and true) points for having lots of similar, "mass production on conveyor belt" quests. But then why wasn't it the same in the old times? It seems to me, 2-3 years ago 80-90% of the newbies immediately started with something new that stood out, even if the overall quality wasn't something great.
In fact, such standout doesn't require THAT much effort. I saw a Dark World tree among the old screenshots that used not mountain colours, rather one of the other gradients. Very unique, yet very easy to make. Also, some small modifications on a tile can make it look absolutely new.

So, I see how the current case is logical, but then why were the old times more unique? What is missing now? OR what was there then? Maybe the fact that ZC was new at that time. Few features, Classic feeling. Few members, small family feeling.

To be honest, I don't remember anything unique back then as opposed to now. And I was working in ZQ around those days. You either used newfirst, classic, or gb. Custom tiles were not seen often at all. Most (if not all) quests were 8-piece Triforce adventures whilst saving Zelda. Trust me. Innovation back then was nothing as it is now.

That classic feel, though. How I miss that.

[AaronJer]

I think a lot of people simply don't have the artistic skill to make something look original AND good. Also, I have no interest at all in making or playing a quest that doesn't 'look' like a Zelda game, I bet a lot of people agree. I don't consider myself to be much of an artist by any standard, which is one of the reasons I stick to 8-bit style graphics. It's very easy to draw something better than the original artist/s of LoZ if it's 8-bit. They were unbelievably poor artists. One of the few things they got right was some tiles that you couldn't easily see repetition in, like their basic sand tile, but that's more of a mathematical thing than an artistic thing.

I really am trying to capture the classic feeling along with new (and not so crappy looking as the original) art.





Is this the kind of thing you mean when you say want to see new original stuff? I hope it is, because it's pretty much the best I can/will do, in that I don't want it to look any less 'zelda' than that.

Edited by AaronJer, 28 May 2008 - 07:27 PM.

[Purplemandown]

Awesome screens!

This whole "everything the same thing" is more comon in classic than in the newer sets. This may be because of less variety. Weird how that works...

[CastChaos]

Lemon:
I miss ZC-Ninja who was making a mega unique FF quest. That bottle house was ultimately unique. And screens like "the most pubbiest pub ever" had absolutely new style.

Exate:
So strange. As I looked the old screens up, I saw something very new in most of them. And what I see nowadays is that people put down ground detail, some trees, maybe some water and so they call it a day.

AaronJer:
Yes!!! That's especially the kind of innovation that fills the black hole in my heart! Little glasses as hearts, nice paper, totally new wand, and the star creations: the interesting gap borders, exciting new eyes and stunning new sphinxes are really something that makes me think "Wow, it was worth to be involved in ZC even solely for this quest!". Keep up the good work.

[AaronJer]

The red eyes open and close too, and the floor in that room breaks open (animated) and more eyes show up under it. It took me like 8 hours to draw all the tiles for it, since each broken floor part is unique.

I'd make every boss a custom boss but I spend WAY too long on just the art for them... tires me out. But actually, the part that took the longest was getting the sand to repeat well. At first I had like 9 different sand tiles to make it look good, but keeping in the spirit of 8-bit I wanted to get it as close to 1 as I could...

I only wish I could work on my quest... I'm getting damn suicidal over this.

Edited by AaronJer, 29 May 2008 - 03:50 AM.