63 replies to this topic

[Orithan]

I really wanted to get this out of my system, but what has really been annoying me was that the amount of feedback I get from my two most recent projects that had demos/betas; The Lost Kingdom DX (granted that this is pretty much dead by now) and Zelda's Last Wish was less than par, especially in comparison to my previous projects TLoZ: The Awakening of Giratina (Platinum Quest) and its sequel, TLoZ: The Atoment of Time (my cancelled Diamond Quest) and many of other people's quests/betas.
I released the demos/betas because I wanted feedback on how I should I improve, and I haven't been getting what I needed. ZLW is a prime example - I released it on late September under the expectation that I would get plenty of comments and not many people downloaded it, much less made constructive and tactful comments on it, even during the Fall Expo. Worse yet, some of the feedback I got was extremely negative and I was unable to salvage anything helpful from that. Granted it was a bit rough on the edges when I first released the beta, but that was why I wanted feedback from it. So far, I have made a total of 5 updates to it and I consider my expo update to be arguably the most successful because I addressed so many of the complaints members had with it, but it still didn't get the feedback I wanted.
The lack of attention on TLKDX was more understandable, people did feel unimpressed with my attention to detail in the dungeons and I refused to fix it because I thought it was adequate myself. But I really liked my work on the overworld (even though I had a tendency to bash myself about the mountains in the past, when now I feel that they were my best works in screendesign through all of my time in ZC). However, not many people played the demo. If I recall, only 2-3 people commented after I released the demo.
Is there anything that I am doing wrong with my quest announcements or something like that, because I would really like to know what is causing my more recent quest demos/betas to get the little attention they have been getting. Try to be tactful with this, because I accept criticism the most readily when it is tactful.

[Hergiswi]

Wait, so I'm confused. It sounds like you want feedback, but when you got negative feedback, you didn't want to take it. Are you just looking for people to compliment your work? Am I missing something here?

[trudatman]

I fully understand your desire to get helpful feedback, but I think you are missing the key part of this, which I think is that you rub people the wrong way and it can lead folks to feeling that they'd be better off just keeping their potential comment to themselves so they don't have to participate in the likely drama. personally, I have learned that every time I try to help you by giving you constructive criticism, you get all worked up about being offended and how you are looking for comments in every area other than that in which I am offering critiques. I very much wish I got more feedback on my exposition demo, but I also am aware that I am not exactly Mister Popular around here, so I imagine that people don't give a first look at my stuff. I figure you are suffering in a similar way, awaiting words that may never be posted. I feel like this help I am offering you here, now, possibly will result in drama, but I really do want to impart some knowledge that may lead to understanding. you don't take comments other than hollow praise well at all. seek the change you want within yourself before expecting a positive reaction from the rest of us.

[Jared]

I'm just going to input my reasoning here.

I played it once, without the sword (I picked the tunic, not realizing it was "Hard" mode). And thus, I stopped playing out of anger.

Aside from that, there's nothing that makes me WANT to comment on your screens or anything. I just find them boring, and not worth my time. It's just another quest that's out there.

And no, it's not because it's in Classic.

Maybe I'm saying you need to work on getting your quest out there better, and make it in a way that people will want to know more and play it.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

Yeah, you're saying here that you're bothered by a lack of feedback, yet at the same time you're complaining about the type of feedback you've been getting.

Listen, Orin, this is a very simple problem. When feedback is lacking, it's because interest is also lacking. Interest doesn't just come from no where, you have to give that interest to your player. That is your job, and if you find yourself looking at an empty topic, that's because you failed to get people interested.

Now, I couldn't begin to answer why people aren't interested. I am personally not interested, because looking over your topics, there's nothing there that grabs me. I'm on a forum with tons of Zelda fan-games available and currently in-the-making, so naturally it's gonna take a little to stick out.

And before we go, just so we are clear:

I love this screen, keep it up!

This is not feedback. This is bullshit, and you don't need it. Seriously. It's nice to hear, yes, but it's not feedback, and it's not going to help anyone get anywhere. Sadly, this community has a big problem when it comes to trying to balance out actual feedback with meaningless praise.

The other day I saw someone comment and call a screen 'perfect'. That makes no sense. It wasn't perfect, and I don't think the person who said it actually believed it was either, but around these parts it's almost considered bad not to spit out meaningless praise all the time, so that's sort of just how things goes. But I think that if we started ignoring the people who are guilty of this, I think we might be able to shape a community that's simply better at sharing their opinions on things with each other. We need that.

[trudatman]

well, that's feedback. useless feedback, yes, but it is feedback.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

well, that's feedback. useless feedback, yes, but it is feedback.

In terms of the word's meaning, sure. But I'm sure everyone and their dog understood what I meant by that, but congratulations for trying to be funny or something.

[Shane]

What you think is tactless and nonconstructive criticism is debatable, Orin. Giggidy may not have been the friendliest but he did provide you with feedback that I 100% agree with regarding your beta of Zelda's Last Wish. Face it Orin, you're asking for criticism, you get criticism, then you complain about getting criticism.

[Orithan]

If the problem is that it is uninteresting, then I would appreciate that you say so and suggest ways to improve it. There is nothing to stop you from doing so. If you have had problems in ZLW in the previous updates (as in when there was no message telling you what to do at the start when I first released it or the high amount of shooting enemies in tight areas without the shield until the expo update and then my most recent update), I highly suggest that you download the updates and comment from there. If anything is uninteresting, then my guess is probably the screendesign.

I don't mind a little bit of negative feedback, but when it gets extremely negative (as in "this entire quest sucks and you should start over from scratch!") coupled with tactlessness, then I do mind. I much prefer that you use tact and not rant about how everything about x is horrible. I'd much rather prefer people to say "Give the players a shield at the start of the quest because there are too many shooting enemies to have without it" rather than "Why the **** do you not start without the shield? LoZ gave you the shield at the start for a ******* reason; there are an incredible amount of shooting enemies in tight spaces." Yes, I am considering on having you start up with a shield and you only get the choice of a sword at the start, but I feel that will make it feel even more uninteresting because almost all quests I've played do that. Maybe between the Sword or the Wand (and buff up the enemies HP and and other weapons attack power to balance it out)?

Edited by Orin XD, 30 December 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[Shane]

Well, criticism doesn't have to be sugarcoated in sunshine and rainbows you know. Since you don't like being suggested to start over, why did you give the same criticism towards me at Screenshot of the Week? If you're going to dish out stuff you don't like hearing, then you should at least admit you're being a bit hypocritical here.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

If the problem is that it is uninteresting, then you should say so and suggest ways to improve it.

You're looking at this the wrong way. The player shouldn't have to do anything to get interested. That's your job as a designer. If you find it hard to do so, that's fine, but you're saying this as if it's somehow our fault for not being interested in some random Zelda fan game on the Internet.

In the end of the day though, none of us are professional game developers. This is a hobby, and some of us may take it more seriously than others. That's fine - and there's no one saying you can't make a quest exactly the way you want it. But regardless of what you do, you should never expect anything out of your players. Be happy that people are having fun with your work, but don't think you're entitled to having people play it.

So you can blame it on us for not telling you how to make the game more interesting all you want, but then you're failing to see the actual problem: that we're not interested. It's sad in a way, but people who will give you good feedback without having any interest in the game to begin with are very rare. Learning how to make your games more interesting to other people isn't something that happens overnight. Heck, very few things can, or should be learned quickly. It's like an instrument. It's not hard to understand the concept of how a piano works, but mastering it something else entirely.

[Orithan]

You're looking at this the wrong way. The player shouldn't have to do anything to get interested. That's your job as a designer. If you find it hard to do so, that's fine, but you're saying this as if it's somehow our fault for not being interested in some random Zelda fan game on the Internet.

(mainly about the bolded part) Yeah, I overstepped when I made that comment. Being cynical and all, I personally thought that I was being neglected by the community until this thread suggests otherwise. The most recent quest project that I conceptualized that quickly gained significant attention here was the "furry" quest idea whose thread got trashed, and that was from the wrong kind of attention.

Edit: I personally think that it was a good idea for me to make this thread because it enabled me to let off some steam about the whole attention thing. You would not want to see me blow up on the whole thing after keeping it bottled up for so long.

Edited by Orin XD, 30 December 2012 - 11:33 PM.

[Jared]

The most recent quest project that I conceptualized that quickly gained significant attention here was the "furry" quest idea that got trashed, and that was from the wrong kind of attention.

Not everyone hates that idea...I personally loved it.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

(mainly about the bolded part) Yeah, I overstepped when I made that comment. Being cynical and all, I personally thought that I was being neglected by the community until this thread suggests otherwise. The most recent quest project that I conceptualized that quickly gained significant attention here was the "furry" quest idea whose thread got trashed, and that was from the wrong kind of attention.

Edit: I personally think that it was a good idea for me to make this thread because it enabled me to let off some steam about the whole attention thing. You would not want to see me blow up on the whole thing after keeping it bottled up for so long.

Hey, that's why we're here. To help each other out. Just so we're clear, I totally see where you're coming from, and I understand why it felt like you were being neglected. Just know that we're all either going through that, or have at one point during our time here. And I agree, it was good that you made the topic, cause if you had not, you might still think that everyone were neglecting you.

[Nathaniel]

I did not read every post in this thread, but here is what I think is a good approach to both asking for and handling feedback.

1. First consider what is helpful feedback vs. what is unhelpful feedback. People often first separate the positive from the negative, which I think is a mistake. By separating the helpful vs. the unhelpful (or feedback vs. non-feedback), you can immediately throw out and ignore what you don't think is helpful, and then consider what you find to be helpful.

2. Once the above is done, now finally separate the positive feedback from the negative feedback. That way, that only matters among what you consider to be helpful and with valid points. Both kinds are helpful, so you have an idea what people think you are doing right and what people think you are doing wrong.

3. Consider what negative feedback is within your control, and what isn't. Thus, you can work on what you are most willing and able to improve on first. If you feel you can't improve on something due to limitations, it might be an opportunity to either ask more questions about it, or even to be more specific about the criticisms. Or if you are not ready for them, consider them later if you can.

Also, if you are expecting certain kinds of feedback, or certain types of things you want people to comment on, you have to tell them that. Instead of just saying "please provide constructive feedback", you need to tell them what is constructive for you. Pose some questions, such as...

How do you like my overworld screen design?
How do you like my design of this dungeon?
How do you like my block puzzles?
Do you think ________ would be better like _______ or like __________, or do you have another idea?
Do you like the implemented scripts? Which ones (if any) should be removed or changed? If changed, how can it be made better?
How do you like the tileset?
How do you like the choice of custom graphics? Which ones (if any) should be removed or changed? If changed, how can it be made better? It also helps to let them know what is custom and what isn't, to avoid some confusion.

etc etc etc
It never hurts to pose questions if you have certain expectations on what is helpful feedback for you. And remember, what is helpful feedback for you isn't necessarily helpful feedback for somebody else. After all, we are not all wired the same way. Now these are clearly just examples. Obviously not everybody scripts or does custom graphics, and it's okay if people don't.

If you are worried about how you are doing particular things, use that as an opportunity to mention that to people, so they can effectively zero in on things you want people to discuss. But this is also to say that people will have opinions on things you don't realize are there, and you therefore might not be ready to hear about some things, but that is okay too.