29 replies to this topic

[Dawnlight]

Orithan, let's ask ourselves this question...seeing that several of us have grown up from the SNES to N64 days, how come nobody has ever complained about games like Super Mario World, Ocarina of Time, A Link to the Past, and Super Mario 64 being "too difficult" that they would petition for an AI that plays the game for you?

 

It's rather silly to have superguides exist while a much better solution would be to just have multiple difficulty levels which is something Nintendo utilizes for only a few games. Superguides do not make the player work for their accomplishments nor do they make players think. It's just a sugarcoated way for the game to say "Aha, you suck! Let me play the game for you!" You are pretty much saying that games like Dark Souls should have a superguide to appeal to casuals who are too lazy to work towards reaching the end and could potentially piss off long time fans who praise the game for its punishing difficulty and how they spent countless hours advancing through the game.

[Orithan]

I'm baffled with the amount of negative responses towards it.

First off: They do NOT ruin the point of the game. By using that argument, you are implying that they are required to be used, which is complete rubbish. You can just simply decline and ignore it to play the game normally.

Secondly: Is there a rule that says the new generation has to play by the rules of our generation had? No. The "I had to do it this way in my day, they have to do it this way nowadays" argument just doesn't sit with me well because, quite frankly, it is groundless. Our social demographic has changed a lot since first the time we picked up our controllers, to a point where superguides are appropriate.

The level argument Koh brought up is a fairly solid, valid argument against it. I do think that difficulty levels are a good way to balance out the game to make it more accessible, but they take a fair amount of time and resources as well as a lot more testing to complete as well as they don't guarantee that everyone can play it. Touhou is a key example of this, as even Easy is ridiculously difficult. I've seen my younger brother play it and he can't get even get past Stage 2 of Subterranean Animism with Reimu-A on Easy. Additionally it can be awkward if the difficulty isn't proplerly set or tested, which I will again refer to Touhou for. The final boss' last spellcard attack, "Mountain of Faith", in Touhou 10 is significantly harder on Easy than Normal. I've also seen my older brother play Touhou 6 on Lunatic and he found several card attacks easier than what they were on Normal.

[Evan20000]

After doing some thinking on it, there is one game series that handles this kind of mechanism well. In the older Crash Bandicoot games, if you died enough times at one segment you would eventually respawn able to take an additional hit for the duration of that life (Imagine if you respawned as Super Mario as opposed to small) and if you continued having problems with the level, it would eventually add a few more checkpoint locations. This is probably the best execution I can think of of this kind of system; it band-aids the difficulty while not robbing the player of the experience and satisfaction and in no way is dying the 5+ times to trigger it at all a viable strategy. The key difference is the strength of the difficulty band-aid. One effectively removes game content for you, while the other slightly fudges the rules in the player's favor.

That said, I still stick with my earlier post regarding Nintendo's implementation of it as initially presented.

[Dawnlight]

Secondly: Is there a rule that says the new generation has to play by the rules of our generation had? No. The "I had to do it this way in my day, they have to do it this way nowadays" argument just doesn't sit with me well because, quite frankly, it is groundless. Our social demographic has changed a lot since first the time we picked up our controllers, to a point where superguides are appropriate.

Do you have any proof that today's consumers need to be spoonfed in today's modern games? Without that credibility, this argument has subjective written all over it.

[Koh]

The level argument Koh brought up is a fairly solid, valid argument against it. I do think that difficulty levels are a good way to balance out the game to make it more accessible, but they take a fair amount of time and resources as well as a lot more testing to complete as well as they don't guarantee that everyone can play it. Touhou is a key example of this, as even Easy is ridiculously difficult. I've seen my younger brother play it and he can't get even get past Stage 2 of Subterranean Animism with Reimu-A on Easy. Additionally it can be awkward if the difficulty isn't proplerly set or tested, which I will again refer to Touhou for. The final boss' last spellcard attack, "Mountain of Faith", in Touhou 10 is significantly harder on Easy than Normal. I've also seen my older brother play Touhou 6 on Lunatic and he found several card attacks easier than what they were on Normal.

An exception doesn't define the rule.  Majority of games with difficulty settings are tested thoroughly enough for the difficulties to play as advertised.  Many games don't even need anything other than calculation changes for these settings.  Maybe you take 50% less damage and deal 50% more damage on easy, for example, so it's just a matter of using the Easy formula instead of the Normal or Hard formulas.  This tends to be the case with RPG games anyway.  For something like Mario, perhaps a switch needs to be turned on or off that adds extra help to the levels, such as extra checkpoints or powerups and lives.  Anything is better than having the game play itself, or nullifying most obstacles.

Edited by Koh, 02 March 2014 - 03:09 PM.

[Aevin]

Secondly: Is there a rule that says the new generation has to play by the rules of our generation had? No. The "I had to do it this way in my day, they have to do it this way nowadays" argument just doesn't sit with me well because, quite frankly, it is groundless. Our social demographic has changed a lot since first the time we picked up our controllers, to a point where superguides are appropriate.

It's this feeling that always leaves me conflicted. On one hand, it is a different generation, with different priorities. Many of the games played these days on smartphones are simple little time wasters, and if a game is really challenging, some people will just drop it and move on to one of those. From the standpoint of Nintendo and other companies, it just makes sense to offer ways for less patient gamers to find these games accessible.

 

However, as I said before, I do worry about the sorts of lessons this teaches. It's easy for people in our generation to think that kids these days don't have to work for anything and are taught that if they fail, they'll still be rewarded. But the truth is, pretty much every generation ever criticizes the next for not being just like them. I don't know why we need to see it as a bad thing that people enjoy games differently from us.

Edited by Aevin, 02 March 2014 - 03:49 PM.

[Shane]

I was four when I figured out the first dungeon of Ocarina of Time. I kept quitting because I keep getting stuck, and the boss seemed rather impossible to do, but in the end, I beat the dungeon. The reward of beating my first Zelda dungeon (or dungeon in any video game) wouldn't have been the same at all if I used a guide which pretty much tries to sugarcoat gaming. It does ruin the point of the current difficulty and challenge level of the game, saying otherwise is groundless because you can beat the game without a super guide. All it takes is a little effort, practice and patience.

[coolgamer012345]

NO! NO SUPERGUIDES! WHY SHOULD ANYONE BE GIVEN THIS PIECE OF RUBBISH THAT JUST MAKES LAZY GAMERS MORE LAZY AND NOT GOOD AT VIDEOGAMES, VIDEOGAMES STILL NEED TO BE ABLE TO CHALLANGE PLAYERS! EVEN MARIO! I grew up with the SNES and N64 and guess what? NO WAY TO LET YOU CHEAT THROUGH THE ENTIRE MARIO LEVEL, OR LARGE PARTS OF A GAME! So no to superguides... Just NO... NOOO! The guy that implemented this should be fired!

[TheLegend_njf]

Lazy gamers tend to have richer parents.

[anikom15]

Lazy gamers tend to have richer parents.

 

Do you have any evidence of that?

[Ventus]

Lazy gamers tend to have richer parents.

My parents are poor and I'm a lazy gamer... so sir your post is an error.  

[KingPridenia]

My parents are poor and I'm a lazy gamer... so sir your post is an error.

 

Well to be fair, he did say "Lazy gamers TEND to have richer parents", not "Lazy gamers have richer parents". His statement is more believable using the word "TEND" instead of making a sweeping generalization. However, whether or not there is a definite correlation between one's financial status and one's diligence as a gamer is questionable. You have to consider there are a lot of variables and statistics are often one of the most cherry-picked things around. It's easy to skew them to try to make your side look more favorable.

 

But anyway, back on-topic, I think games have gone soft. I know before I went on a rant back on page 1 about having to beat Zelda II as a kid WITHOUT a guide and no chance of having the difficulty lowered because I suck at the game. But let's face it; I did get life lessons out of it, mostly to not quit and give up. Also, you feel a lot more satisfied when you beat the game fair and square. All those deaths you had, and you finally get the ending after months of frustration, tears and near broken controllers.

 

On difficulty, I think some games do it right. You have an Easy difficulty or something, good for beginners and kids. Then you have Normal, which is more on a softcore gamer's level of skill. Then you have Hard, which if you thought you mastered the game on Normal, it gives you a rude awakening when you're getting mauled 5 minutes in the game. Oh and on the Expert/Very Hard mode, if you're not on the top of your game, expect controllers and TVs to be broken. God of War is one game like that. The fighting sections are a joke on Easy and just about any gamer, regardless of skill, should do well in the fighting sections, save for against Gorgons and other tough enemies. You never have to get skilled and learn how to use all of your moves on Easy. That same play style can probably pull you through Normal, but on Hard mode, you better be good at dodging, blocking and have enemies mastered. Then on Very Hard, your skill is tested to the extreme; can you defeat Medusa before she hits you twice and kills you from full health?

 

One thing I don't mind as much are "anti frustration features". In God of War for example, if you're playing on Normal and say one fight keeps on killing you over and over again. Eventually, the game will ask you if you would like to lower the difficulty to Easy. That's okay. But if say you're playing Normal and die in a battle constantly and are asked if you want to skip it or have infinite magic for that one battle, then no.

 

Another thing I like is done with Kirby's Avalanche. You have four difficulties; Easy, Normal, Hard and Hardest. The only difference between the four is how fast your Puyos drop. On Easy, they drop very slow. On Hardest, they drop lightning fast. As far as I can tell, the AI strength is the same regardless of difficulty.

 

For the Competition mode, you can pick Easy (3 Learning Stages), Normal (starts you at the first opponent) or Hard (starts you at the fourth opponent). On Easy, once you defeat three opponents, the game ends and King Dedede says, "Congratulations! You are a fast learner. I underestimated your skill...MAYBE!" Basically, it's the Easy Mode Mockery trope played. If you want the real ending, you have to play Competition on Normal or Hard (the global difficulty is still set to Easy/Normal/Hard/Hardest). Once you best those 13 stages, then you get the real ending.

 

I mean some games like Contra 3 on the SNES does that. It's not an easy game, and beating it on Easy denies you an ending. All it does is challenge you to beat the game on Normal. Beating it on Normal challenges you to play the game on Hard. Only after beating it on Hard do you get the ending you fought for. Personally, if it was up to me, I'd have the next Super Mario game have Easy, Normal and Hard modes. Easy mode is just the first 3 worlds. After beating the 3rd world, Bowser gives Mario a letter challenging him to play on Normal mode. Easy mode would also be the hand holding mode with tons of 1-ups, power-ups, etc. Normal would be the classic 5 life setup. Hard would be only 3 lives, all damage Mario takes makes him small, regardless of power-up, and he cannot store power-ups with levels having shorter time limits. You get the ending on Normal/Hard modes, but only getting all the Star Coins on Hard would unlock the "World 9" of that game or Champion's Road, whatever it's called.

[Haylee]

I've decided to give a more in depth opinion on this, since I've found something rather neat.

 

The Super Guides in DKC Returns and the original NSMB Wii are just no. "You suck? Here, let us beat the level for you." That's just really freaking bad. That is not a way to program a game, and just gives to people who refer to the games as childish a better reasoning behind their thoughts. And example of a "Superguide" persay done correctly is Super Mario 3D Land and World. The invincibility Leaf isn't too big of a problem to me for a couple of reasons:

 

1) Most of your deaths in a Mario Game are by missing platforms, not by the enemies, making invincibility somewhat pointless most of the time, especially in levels where there are almost no enemies.

 

2) It's just overall a much better way of handling the "Oh you suck? Well, we'll help you out" kind of deal.

 

Despite the fact that I still hate superguides to death, I still feel that some games to in fact do it correctly, even if they shouldn't be there. Just certain games do the superguide correctly rather than playing the game for you like it shouldn't.

[strike]

Accessibility is almost never determined by difficulty now a days. There are lots of times A game has been too hard for me and I have given up. But if the game was actually good and well done they would always draw me back and I would always conquer them. Growing up is one of the fundamental joys of video games. And Super Guides take that away.

-Strike

[Dawnlight]

Press A to Jump press B to dash = accessibility.