34 replies to this topic

[Ben]

So. Interesting discussion. A lot of people believe that Zelda Classic has reached a point where the only option (if it is to continue to exist) is a complete remake from the ground up -- if it does not undergo such a process, it will die. I want to share some of the ideas I had for some reason, but not in any specific order.

1. Interface more like a paint program

ZC is currently fairly counterintuitive and slow to work with. Instead of the fixed interface, the app should look more like Photoshop, or even like MS Paint. In addition, it should use the system's main window manager instead of drawing its own unique UI. Tiles should be allowed to have solidity masks that go to individual pixels instead of 4-block intervals (optional.) Tiles should also be allowed in 8x8, 16x16, and 32x32 varieties. Tools such as a selection tool, a lasso, and line/rectangle/circle/polygon tools should also be available. Additionally, you should also be able to define these tools to be intelligent and draw appropriate borders in the case of water/lava/tree tiles - instead of drawing a bunch of one tile, you can create and save a pattern, and have the line/polygon tools draw that pattern. In addition, there should also be a way to place water tiles so that beaches are drawn automatically around deep water tiles, detecting which ones are necessary. In addition to patterns of tiles, you could create custom brushes to plop down specific objects like trees, houses, etc. All of these options are just that - options. You could turn them off. At any rate, ZC should work as your operating system does - as you expect it to. Get rid of strange, possibly confusing terms (the difference between "maps" and "Dmaps" is hard to explain to a newcomer, as are the reasons for allowing both color cycling and animated "combos.")

2. Non-restrictive palettes

You will still be able to create a palette of any size, as a general guideline for a definable group of tiles. As a rule of thumb, you won't want to stray away from your palettes, but in rare cases, you'll want some exotic color added. You can use colors outside of your palette in your tiles instead of being restricted to a set.

3. Modular architecture

Tilesets, music, sounds, scripts, and even quests themselves can all be part of a single, unified format called a library. You can pick and choose which elements of a library to use. In addition, there would be an online repository of the most popular plugins (containing specific quests, tilesets, etc.) that can be downloaded from within Zelda Classic itself. Instead of someone needing to download a quest, they can browse the libraries from within ZC and grab whatever they want. An interface will let you choose individual tiles, music, or quests. It would work like the Synaptic Package Manager in certain Linux distributions (Ubuntu for example.) Any quest you download that depends on part of a library you don't have is marked to also be downloaded automatically.

4. Streamlining and internal redesign

ZC needs to ditch Allegro and C and move to some other language (C++? Objective-C? Python?!?!?!?!) It needs to be written in something that can easily be ported to other platforms using as few lines of code as possible. The foundation of the app must also evolve as time goes on and not merely be added to. This is one of the main flaws with the current version, and with many applications that people use daily it causes some grave security risks. The application must also be able to operate without any other dependencies - all of the code should be able to run without needing to refer to third-party libraries too much.

The new version would also drop the Zelda name and go open-source. This would probably be the most controversial decision. As long as ZC is closed-source, only a small amount of people can get into it, and opening up the code with the name "Zelda" in the program's name is a surefire way to get sued.



Anyway, these are just a few things I've been wondering about. Another thing is that ... if this thread garners enough good ideas, it should be reposted "someplace else" where it would probably get more attention.

[Snarwin]

Yeah, someone should totally do something like that.

[Ben]

Yeah, someone should totally do something like that.

... exactly. XD

[Nathaniel]

It certainly is a fantastic idea. One consistent program vs. a clunky/messy one based on a smaller foundation followed by years of add-ons. As long as there exists people with the time, skills, ambition, and willingness to work together as a team, then it can be achieved. Where there is a will there is a way.

[Alestance]

I would use Zelda Classic more if it were like that.

[Eurysilas]

I would love it if this hapened, Bengal, but....Who's going to do any of this? You know me, I would never be rude to you. But I can't help but think "Talk is one thing....Action, quite another". I would be 100% behind this in an instant, but first I have to know it's more than talk.

And about dropping the Zelda name and going open source, as I said above, I'd be 100% for all these changes, ESPECIALLY THESE, but I don't think that you're going to get the code under these terms. Not even one statement.

Despite what may seem to be an overall negative tone to my post, I do believe his needs to be reposted to where it gets more attention. I just don't think anyone (including you) should get their hopes up.

[Majora]

So it JUST ocurred to me:

Zelda Classic is to Game Making programs as Windows is to OS's:

a plagirism of something else (windows steals ideas left and right, as does ZC BUT, the important distinction is that the latter wasn't done so in a negative fashion)

old as all holy hell (in today's computer-driven world, the year 2001 is to technology as the year 5 A.D. is to people)

Counter-intuitive (where stuff is, all the features and the lack of documentation on them excluding the Wiki as of recently, the UI)

Never really "fixed" (windows patches everything and its mother, whereas ZC's fixes give similar results: it's fixed NOW but it will either break later or something else breaks as a result of the fixing.




Also, I have an old version (I think it's from maybe 12-18 months old, I'm not sure) of the ZC code, if anyone wants it it'll cost ya >:o (i'm not serious, in case you can't tell. >_>). Actually, I have two copies of it, one from just before the devs started doing the changelog (so I think it's probably from around 2.11 B15 but before alpha 169), and one from an alpha that was MAYBE in the 300's range, possibly older, I'm just guesstimating the 'version' based on around what time I remember finding the codes.

[sigtau]

May I ask how you got this source code?

[Twilight Knight]

Quite a good idea, though I really like ZC cause it's not like most other game making stuff. It's lot more unique this way...
But it is indeed a good idea to make these things as options, that would still make ZC unique enough and add easier aces for n00bs...
Also, I would like to work on such things, but I rather see 2.5 as goal. 2.5 is needed, beta testing is and it's best for ZC developers for this:
-Try fix all remaining FOUND bugs, I see a lot of bugs of AGN which aren't fixed because they aren't so clear. I also remembered AGN to be more active before, it should be again, or fuse with PZC. Those are possibilities, but the point is: remove remaining bugs.
-Activate all remaining ZC users to come together in one thread.
-Activate all ZC developers to warm themselves up for a small revolution.
-Did I say thread? Well make an apart subforum for it actually. Then tell people that they can betatest ZC. Divide the applied betatesters to groups and let them test certain functions. All functions should be tested.
-Everyone report in that one subforum.
-Close forum, fix all bugs.
-Remove all old threads, release new build and possibly add new features, thus ending that seemingly endless feature-freeze.
-Activate for testers again a little while later, repeat process several times, every time adding a few new features, so that those will be instantly tested.
-After 10x of this stuff, which can be done in very small time actually(!!!), run a final, COMPLETE betatest. Report bugs again, fix. Make maximum improvements.
-Stable 2.5 is guaranteed, yay for you.

Now this is THE way of doing this, probably the best. I'm quite sure this can be accomplished by very loyal ZCers(for example: me!), about 10 of them would be enough, even. If all are motivated enough to save (one of our) most favorite program(s). At least I'm quite willing to test many functions, which isn't really that hard to do as long as you work with a group. ZC devs should test too of course.

Replies to this are welcome, I was waiting for the right moment to propose this, hopefully this is that one moment. Even better: I hope a ZC dev will read this.

[CastChaos]

This thread is quite like saying "I have a great idea! Be everybody rich and healthy! What do you say, good idea?".

-Try fix all remaining FOUND bugs, I see a lot of bugs of AGN which aren't fixed because they aren't so clear. I also remembered AGN to be more active before, it should be again, or fuse with PZC. Those are possibilities, but the point is: remove remaining bugs.
-Activate all remaining ZC users to come together in one thread.
-Activate all ZC developers to warm themselves up for a small revolution.
-Did I say thread? Well make an apart subforum for it actually. Then tell people that they can betatest ZC. Divide the applied betatesters to groups and let them test certain functions. All functions should be tested.
-Everyone report in that one subforum.
-Close forum, fix all bugs.
-Remove all old threads, release new build and possibly add new features, thus ending that seemingly endless feature-freeze.
-Activate for testers again a little while later, repeat process several times, every time adding a few new features, so that those will be instantly tested.
-After 10x of this stuff, which can be done in very small time actually(!!!), run a final, COMPLETE betatest. Report bugs again, fix. Make maximum improvements.
-Stable 2.5 is guaranteed, yay for you.

This thread isn't about how should a 2.5 made quick, rather how ZC should look in the future.
Otherwise sounds good. In reality, this is rather something that people do when a stable release is already very near. Especially that life isn't a strategy game, developers can't move ZC users to bugreport threads with two clicks and them right click them to report.
Also... merging AGN and PZC? I sum a very long reply for that in three letters: WTF

a plagirism of something else (windows steals ideas left and right, as does ZC BUT, the important distinction is that the latter wasn't done so in a negative fashion)

Even bigger WTF. ZC not "steals" ideas from Zelda games, it's ZELDA Classic, it's role is to directly copy LoZ and then try to take as much things from other games as possible... Your "Windows/ZC" comparison is really... "whaddyacall"...

Plus the third post (and the fact that it's here, not in GZCD )convinced me that this thread is a joke.

[Twilight Knight]

This thread isn't about how should a 2.5 made quick, rather how ZC should look in the future.
Otherwise sounds good. In reality, this is rather something that people do when a stable release is already very near. Especially that life isn't a strategy game, developers can't move ZC users to bugreport threads with two clicks and them right click them to report.
Also... merging AGN and PZC? I sum a very long reply for that in three letters: WTF

1. I said, I thought this was the right time. Just wanted to give substance full post.
2. Life is a strategy game, not really as in the same unreal dimensions like a few clicks and your done, but you need to do everything with strategy or you will FAIL.
3. AGN and PZC merging: NICE. Another strategic move. Increases ZC activity, which is most important for the developers after all.

[Majora]

EDIT: Nevermind

Edited by Majora, 31 October 2008 - 02:22 PM.

[Schwa]

3. AGN and PZC merging: NICE. Another strategic move. Increases ZC activity, which is most important for the developers after all.

No. GOD no. I refuse to associate with those flaming drama queens.

That's not intended to be a flame, just stating my (perhaps strong) opinions about them. >_< Also, to those of you who go here as well as AGN, I don't consider you AGNers, I consider you PZCers.

[Majora]

You have to realize that not all of them are "Flaming drama queens" maybe like, a handful of them are. >_>

I am not-against merging, would probably be the best (or at least a pretty good) thing to do.

[Twilight Knight]

Well, that's the only major problem, but as I said, PZC merging with AGN is best for ZC activity.