23 replies to this topic

[link3505]

I've been thinking about this for quite some time, and I can't just sit by any more. I need to say something. This is to the general Zelda Classic population, more so to the people who keep up with the whole "No more features, more bug fixes!" mess

Shut the **** up. Where do you get off demanding something from people who have gifted this program to us? We, the users, are only able to use Zelda Classic because of the generosity of Phantom Menace, and continue to use it because of DN, jman2050, and all the rest of the past and present developers. This is THEIR program. NOT ours. We only use it. We don't pay for it, we don't contribute to it in any significant way

You, and by "you" I mean the people who keep *****ing about it, have no right to demand anything of the developers. If they want to add so many features it takes weeks to go through the Quest Rules list, then so be it. If they want to take the source code and launch it into the sun so the future of ZC is effectively ended, then let them

We, the users, use what THEY give us. Not the other way around, where we tell THEM what to do. It's nothing short of a miracle that they even listen to us, and give us features that we've suggested. And I emphasize 'suggested'. It is up to the developers what they add, remove, fix, and break in the program, not us. If you don't like what they do with it, then you can leave

Zelda Classic is a fantastic program, and everyone seems to be taking it for granted. I know I said it before, but I'll say it again: It's only because of the developer's generosity that we even get to use it. To demand that they do something a certain way is incredibly rude in my eyes

I'm not saying that we shouldn't have any say in the development of Zelda Classic. I'm saying that before we go about demanding this and that, we stop and consider that this is not OUR program. It's theirs. They could easily say "**** you. Zelda Classic is now invitational-use only!", or "Zelda Classic dies right here, right now", and that would be it. We could, and probably would, rant and protest, but ultimately, it's their decision

Sure, I'd like to see a stable release, too. But right now, it seems like the developers are afraid to add any new features, or they'll start a riot. That is so wrong, on so many levels...

So if you fall into the "No more features, more bug fixes!" group of users, get over it. Use what the developers give you, or get out

That's all I have to say about that

[Freedom]

So who are you?
You think we don't have the right to say what we want but you do?
And you think you have the right to tell us what to do?
You hypocritical son of a *****, suck my ass.

[Theryan]

I wouldn't call it demanding. Some people are just trying to let the developers know that they've done enough. Everybody has their opinions on the matter: some people battle for a full, stable release, some sk for even more features, and some just don't really care what happens.

[link3505]

Wow. Okay, considering that's a blatant flame, I need to say something

I'm not telling you to do anything. I'm saying that you shouldn't go around making the developers to do what you want, like it's your program. It's basic manners. You don't tell someone to give you a gift; you ask for it. Same thing with ZC

[Moonbread]

Here's how I think things work. Both the developers and the users are important. While yes, we as the users are getting it for free, what if there were no more users of ZC? The developers would have no reason to develop ZC anymore. We're very lucky to have the developers working on ZC. However, enough is enough. I understand we shouldn't go haywire and tick the devs off because we want a stable release now. They all have lives, and we should respect that. But... as the players (not trying to sound too rude up ahead), shouldn't we get a say in it as well? Since we're the ones using it, shouldn't we get a say in what we want, and what kind of features we want? It's kind of like a business. We provide the demand, and they usually supply us with what we want (I think that's how it works ). But since it is for FREE, we shouldn't be as demanding. They work hard on ZC, and we shouldn't push them for the things we want. We don't have the right to push them around.

[ShadowTiger]

You hypocritical son of a *****, suck my ass.

Well that's one line that could definitely have been left off. We're quite familiar with your very strong method of communication, Freedom, but even I think that was uncalled for.

You think we don't have the right to say what we want but you do?
And you think you have the right to tell us what to do?

... Mindmelt. ... See below, I suppose. My mind is tacking so many labels and possible meanings and interpretations to these two lines that I don't know what to make of it. Forget I said anything, I guess. Wow.

I'm not telling you to do anything. I'm saying that you shouldn't go around making the developers to do what you want, like it's your program. It's basic manners. You don't tell someone to give you a gift; you ask for it. Same thing with ZC

Wait, here we go. Whatever; people are saying the same things over and over again to get it into peoples' heads that "they're right," but this is nothing different.

So who are you?

He's someone just as affected by bugs as you are. Maybe he's just putting the ZC Devs' needs above the needs of those who don't know how to code yet. I dunno.

I wouldn't call it demanding.

That's fine. That's you. Others would. That's them. Everyone sees the situation differently. I really don't know how people should be thinking though. Some people think in terms of the effort they put into their own work. Others think of morality and promises made. Other people think about others before themselves. I don't want to categorize anyone, but I sure as hell would like to sit in the latter category. I'm usually not all that happy unless everyone around me is happy, and I know that seeing that all these bugs is making people unhappy is true, but I also know that having a disgruntled Dev doesn't add to the crockpot of ... whatever it is cooking.

I like Moonwhisper's post.

BTW off topic reminder: Somethingawful.com's Photoshop Phriday. 'tis Friday.

[Freedom]

RELIC,

I consider YOUR post a blatant flame, but YOU'RE THE MAN and it's ok for you right?
I haven't demanded a damn thing from them, and neither has Petoe, which I imagine you include in your rant.

We do more than just play with the program, unlike you, we want something STABLE

If the Devs think I have treated them with disrespect then all they need do is tell me, and I'll apologize, but in the mean time I've gone out of my way to try and HELP them, unlike you.
Let's go count the posts in the bug forum on AGN and see just how helpful you have been, huh?

ShadowTiger...
Shut the hell up.
You thing because he says "I'm not trying to tell you what to do" and then does it anyway it somehow changes what he said?

Ok then by YOUR logic I will rephrase my initial comment.
Relic, I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but suck my ass.

IS THAT BETTER ShadowTiger?

BULL**** IS BULL**** no matter what color it is painted.

Edited by Freedom, 27 July 2007 - 10:10 PM.

[link3505]

Freedom, I know that both you and Peteo have stated, at least once, that if you didn't get a stable release soon, you'd quit ZC. Granted, that might not be a "demand", but it's pretty damn close. And I've seen others complaining to the developers in #PureZC, on the rare occasions they join, about how they devote most of their time to features and not enough to bug busting

I've reported multiple bugs to jman, Koopa, and DN in the PureZC chat, so don't start comparing bug reports. I've offered my help to them many times in any way I can. Hell, before you even joined, I was a beta tester. And this is when they were closed betas. I mainly use the older features in ZC, so I don't come across as many of the bugs in the new features as you. But when something comes up, I report it

Now, if you'd actually read my post, I said I'd like a stable version. I'd love 2.5 to come out soon, so I can resume work on Hyrule Fantasy, but I don't need it. Personally, I want features. Lots of them, but I don't suggest many any more in hopes of getting a stable version. So check your claims, Freedom, before you start flaming me

And for the record, I posted this in the staff forum, and nobody had anything wrong with it

[Freedom]

I don't need to go far to check claims, starting with your post above.
If nobody fights for a stable release, then it will never come.
So choose your side, or judging by your rant above, it appears you've already chosen your side.
Keep calling for more and more that doesn't work, and slighting those few of us that are calling for a stable release that we can actually use to build and release quests in, again, unlike you.

I didn't "threaten" to quit, it was a fact.
IF there is going to be no stable release, then there is NO reason for me to continue here, I'm here to build quests, not be a professional beta tester for a program that I'll never be able to do that with without a stable release.
It's just that simple.

You're right, it's up to the devs to do or not do, and it's their right.
If they want to do, I will try to help.
If they do NOT want to do, I can find better ways to use my time.

And for the record, I posted this in the staff forum, and nobody had anything wrong with it

Why should they, they knew it wasn't directed at them.
However I take it as a personal insult to me and to Petoe.

Edited by Freedom, 27 July 2007 - 10:38 PM.

[link3505]

Let's try this again

Personally, I want features. Lots of them, but I don't suggest many any more in hopes of getting a stable version

Keep calling for more and more that doesn't work, and slighting those few of us that are calling for a stable release that we can actually use to build and release quests in, again, unlike you.

So check your claims, Freedom

For the last time, I'm in full support of a stable release. But I don't go around dropping ever-so-subtle hints about it. When _L_ first joined, it seemed like all you could do was complain that he was adding features, and not devoting his new-found position to fixing bugs

Nobody should be "Fighting" for anything in ZC. If the developers agree with our suggestions (And not), which they already have, it's up to them. It's not like this is some major program with a multi-million, global user base. It's a program to build games for fun, and should be treated as such. If you don't like how slow the new version is coming along, use an older one

I just don't get why you have to actively press for a stable release. You mentioned in a post at AGN that whenever a new beta came out, you had to update your quests with the new features, which is entirely untrue. Why can't you, or Peteo, or anyone else just sit back and let ZC progress however the developers want?

[ElLibertador]

This is so biased. I definitely don't want to be in this, but I'll say it anyway. I'm sure that if I went gravedigging, I would find almost everyone stating that they want something put or removed or changed in the next beta. Doesn't matter how you put it, it was said.

BTW, I think that there is limits to what you are saying. If you're PMing the Devs and posting threads over and over again about something, then your past the limit. If you actually get a good idea and want to suggest it, you go to the suggestion thread and state it. If the Devs didn't care, there wouldn't be a suggestion thread(I think AGN still has it). There, you say it once and hope they like, and listen to your suggestion. That's what I think.

Edited by linkmystro100, 27 July 2007 - 11:15 PM.

[Teilyr]

You all need to mellow out. Now. There is no need to get this worked up.

My view on this subject is simple. All people who develop quests have a say in what's done with it. Had it not been for people requesting new features, ZC would not be where it is. There's always gonna be a desire for new, cooler stuff to be added.

On the flipside, I also understand the desire for a stable, bugfree release so that more quests can be put out, like it was in the days of 1.90. The viewpoint also makes mention of the fact that if people were allowed a stable release, they'd find workarounds for things, like it was back in the day.

Which side is right? Who's to say. Both have valid points. Quite frankly, there's never going to be resolution among users. There will always be OOOH SHINY THING people, just like there will be FECKING BUGS users. We have to co-exsist, or this little reality called Zelda Classic is going to ... Well..


-Teilyr

[Freedom]

I just don't get why you have to actively press for a stable release. You mentioned in a post at AGN that whenever a new beta came out, you had to update your quests with the new features, which is entirely untrue. Why can't you, or Peteo, or anyone else just sit back and let ZC progress however the developers want?

Because we were promised and I was beta testing towards a stable release last year and all the work I did, I did AFTER 2.11b10b came out, because I honestly believed Jman.
SO NOW if I go back to 183 or 2.10 I have to start from scratch, which means well over 2 years wasted.
Can't you see that?

I've already shelved one quest with over 2 years progress in it, and I guess your saying now I should just shelve the second one too huh?

How many do I shelve and how many years should I beta test before I am allowed to say... "hey can I have a stable release in return for the effort I've put out towards that goal?" without you telling the world what a low life ass I am?

The rest of your quote was outa your hat, you first say one thing and then contradict yourself so you can take either side in an argument, same game shadowTiger always plays, can't take a firm stand one way or the other, so just sets up on the fence and agrees with both sides.

I don't understand your point at all Relic.
WHAT is the point in ANYONE beta testing if they can't have a reasonable expectation that someday they will actually be able to use the product for its intended purpose.

Edited by Freedom, 27 July 2007 - 11:41 PM.

[Nathaniel]

There is no doubt that Freedom wants what he thinks is best for ZC, so he merely expresses what he thinks is best for it and tries to help out however he is able to. Does that mean he is forcing things on the developers? No. He probably couldn't do that no matter how hard he tried. So you can't really blame him for that. Just like you can't blame someone who disagrees with him on what they think is best for ZC. We all want to see ZC continue to be a success. Sometimes we just don't agree on what is best. The fact that we all care goes to show that we are all willing to give it a chance to prove itself for the future. If nobody expressed their concerns to the developers, that would certainly be a much greater problem as that would tell them that we don't care. In a sense it shows them that we all appreciate what has been done with ZC in the past, but we just want to help them along with continuing that same success that is sometimes sidetracked (although that in itself can be subjective). So if any developers see this topic, remember that. We love you all dearly, but sometimes "love" can also mean "concern".

[link3505]

Dude, Freedom, you're taking my posts WAY out of context. I never called you a low-life ass. And you're confusing my beliefs with what I want

Here's my stance on the whole thing
What I want: Features. Lots of features. I want to be able to make Golden Sun, Zelda, MegaMan, and .hack in ONE quest file
What I believe: The developers don't have to listen to a word I say. I'm glad they take suggestions, and it's all up to them what I get

If there's ANY confusion with that, let me know

Now, I did a quick search a little while ago. I searched for your posts, all of them, in the ZC forums. On the THIRD PAGE, 15 out of 25 posts were you either simply mentioning how you quit because of ZC's lack of a stable release, or going so far as to dare DN to put out a stable release, and blame him for it not happening. THAT is what this whole thing is about. I don't know how everyone else sees those posts, but they seem just rude to me, and totally unneeded

And whether or not jman promised a stable release or not, it's still not a good idea to build quests in betas. Sure, I'm doing it myself, but I'm also doing it under the knowledge that no matter what the developers say, there's always a chance that it'll be gone the moment I load it into a build

[Edit]

I don't understand your point at all Relic.
WHAT is the point in ANYONE beta testing if they can't have a reasonable expectation that someday they will actually be able to use the product for its intended purpose.

I'm not debating your expectations. Just your methods to reach them