30 replies to this topic

[KaBoom]

How do you make Link shieldless? Do you use shieldless sprites for the first portion of the game and avoid shooter enemies like octoroks until the player gets the shield?

[Mitchfork]

No, I use the magic of 2.5.

[Aslion]

If you're using a beta, I'd say knock down the hammer's power to 1 or so and give Link that.

[Captain Magenta]

This is a tough situation because all items have their benefits and drawbacks to being the first item found, and it really depends on the layout of the quest in determining how much flexibility the player has at what point in the quest.

The Boomerang is a utilitarian weapon that is not capable of killing anything besides Keese and Gels and possibly other one hit point enemies, but it's drawback is that it is capable of stunning most high stamina enemies which makes the fact you have a level one sword irrelevant.

The Hookshot suffers from the same benefits and drawbacks as the Boomerang, compounded by the fact that it also can stun Wizzrobes and Darknuts if employed properly and can make traversing the overworld too easy too soon.

The Ladder, Raft, Flippers, Roc's Feather, and Power Bracelets have no combat value but they open too much of the overworld too soon as well unless you can design the quest so that certain areas are inaccesible despite the possession of these items much like Lost Isle does with it's triggered events.

The Wand might be a good choice if you enable magic to limit it's ability to be infinitely used, have some utility to the Wand for secret triggers in the dungeons so it serves a viable purpose besides combat, and disable the Wand's ability to be used in melee combat so it cannot be used in place of a level two sword. The Book Of Magic should be withheld however until at least after one of the Candles (Lanterns) is awarded so that the abilities of it's flames are not available too early if that is a concern in the quest.

The Hammer is for obvious reasons a poor choice unless you reduce it's insane attack power down to that of a level one sword in the betas where that is an option, where it then would be able to complement it's utility to eliminate certain obstacles without allowing high stamina enemies to be easily dispatched.

The Bow and Arrows is difficult to award too early in my opinion since it allows both ranged combat and hits with the power of a level two sword unless you tone that power down and present it as say a slingshot for the level one Bow in the betas, leaving the actual Bow available as a level two item, but it's utility as a trigger item can also complicate this choice as well.

Certain items due to their optional nature such as the spells with maybe the exception of Din's Fire which is still too powerful for a first dungeon item, the Book Of Magic, the Magical Key, and the Boots make certain areas too easy and therefore are better left as items that must be obtained by special means.

All in all, I think the design of the quest and the objectives of the player should heavily influence not just what the first item should be, but also the inventory collection order of the entire quest so that each item is both useful and purposeful, without detracting from the quest's challenge or sense of adventure.

[KaBoom]

it's drawback is that it is capable of stunning most high stamina enemies which makes the fact you have a level one sword irrelevant.

What do you mean?

Captain Magenta, you're totally right in how much early items affect overworld design. "Big" abilities (hookshot, flippers, etc.) too early in make it difficult to design a quest as well as properly weave the story into it.

Gray0x, and Captain Magenta, both of you bring up very interesting suggestions. I am now heavily considering the hammer as the first item; I could lower its attack power and the fact that it is slower will make the player anticipate getting the sword without annoying the player too much (hopefully).

I could also place inconvenient poundable boulders in the game's opening area (Lost Woods) and make it so that you explore the forest, find the hammer, pound rocks and get out.

However, there is a large drawback to this; with push blocks, for instance, you can make it so that some blocks are heavy and can't be pushed without bracelets. This is not the case for pound combos, I think there is only one kind. I would've liked to place poundable obstacles throughout the overworld that block access to HCPs or certain areas. Is the sacrifice worth it? I mean, there are tons of other ways to block access to areas right?

Or is the boomerang overall the better choice?

[Mitchfork]

What my dear Captain is trying to say is that it doesn't matter that you have a Level One sword if you get an infinite number of cheap shots.

KaBoom, you can easily create other obstacles. For example, since the first item is the hammer, throw in burnable bushes or hookshotable pits so that players can't reach HCP's until later in the game. Whatever you give in the first level, limiting the player is still an option.

[Feenicks]

What about a hookshot with a really short range (2-3 tiles)? The reduced range would make it harder to use as a stunning device.

[Mitchfork]

Interesting notion... you could even change the name, making it the "Grappling Rope." Of course, you'd have to be using 2.5 builds to accomplish it...

[KaBoom]

What my dear Captain is trying to say is that it doesn't matter that you have a Level One sword if you get an infinite number of cheap shots.

But... if you're in a dungeon room with a shutter set to open when the enemies are dead then a boomerang won't help you... stun an enemy all you want, it still won't die, right? I think it's actually good that for awhile all you can do is stun enemies. Like I said, I want getting the sword to feel like a hard-earned right, not a necessity right off the bat.

And that's a really clever idea with the grappling rope... but I still don't think it fits my vision for the first item. At this point I think its most likely between the hammer or boomerang...

EDIT: Actually, throughout the school day, I'm probably going to spend the boring classes thinking about whether I like this idea or not and how to implement it...

Edited by KaBoom, 20 December 2007 - 06:49 AM.

[Turbon714]

Turbon714: Are you sure that no enemies can be killed by the boomerang? In some Zeldas (MC if I remember correctly) some small ones like bats can be killed. CastChaos is precisely correct: you start the quest in Lost Woods so a combat item is necessary because you only get the sword a moment before the first dungeon which is pretty far into the quest. I apologize for my ignorance in terms of all of ZC's enemies and what items do what to them: i only have some vague ideas.

Yeah, small enemies are killed by the boomerang, I forgot to mention that tidbit. You can use the boomerang to kill keese, gels and bats. You can also use the item editor in the newer betas to actually allow the boomerang to damage stronger enemies as well. Captain Magenta already explained (in great detail) all the properties of most weapons already so I don't really have to go on anymore detail about other weapons. I recommend the boomerang though over the hammer. Getting the hammer already gives you an upper hand on darknuts, which I have to admit are one of the most annoying type of enemy out there. It also takes away a potential boss (if you're not making custom bosses), the Deathknight. (It still is kinda hard with the hammer...if you don't have a strong enough sword or enough hearts...) By getting a hammer, you have the ability to break shields (unless specified otherwise in the quest rules) which simplifies the game; even if you dumb the power down it still has this power.

[Joe123]

hrm...

A lot of people seem to have suggested the Bow and the Boomerang...

Personally, they are not items that I think should be given out early on.
In my opinion, they are about the most overpowered weapons in Link's arsenal, especially early on in the game.
A long ranged weapon, that costs only one rupee per shot, causing as much damage as the White Sword, and something that can stun a huge percentage of enemies, making almost all of the game's early enemies at least 5X easier are not something I like to give out early on.

If I ever give out the boomerang, I like to make it optional, and keep the bow for a little later on (unless you want to reduce it's power to one and use true arrows).

But yeah, Candle (preferably skip Blue and just use Red, I mean, items you can only use once per screen? eh? when was the last time you were restricted to having to leave the room and re-enter it every time you wanted to turn the television on or off?) or a passive item such as the ladder or raft (can't say I'm too fond of the ladder though =P)
The Roc's Feather is also nice, LA:DX gave it out in level 1.

[Captain Magenta]

The shortened Hookshot is an interesting notion that I had forgot to consider; indeed it would limit the player's ability to stun enemies from a distance and still allow gaps larger than it's length to be used until say the Longshot could be acquired. You could also use the betas to possibly alter the properties of Wizzrobes and Darknuts to render them immune to the Hookshot so it cannot stun them. The Hammer could be used for say rusted switches that need to be pounded down to open gates or for only certain types of extremely weakened rocks, and as far as the Darknut issue with the shields you have the option of not allowing broken shields but since I think the Hammer can still strike through the shield regardless of whether it is removed or not this might be a moot point. The bracelets can be saved for later dungeons or bonus overworld items and you also have the option of burnable obstacles, obstacles triggered by arrows or the boomerang which become available later, Bombs and Superbombs for larger boulders too strong to be smashed with the Hammer, gaps only crossable with the Ladder such as deep one tile pits or bridges with missing sections, bodies of water only crossable with the flippers since say like in Mudvayne's quest you need to dive and travel underwater to resurface elsewhere that is not accessible by other means, and even for that matter bushes since they can only be slashed with the sword and if that weapon is withheld for a little while like it was in Hero Of Dreams then the bushes can block access to areas you do not want the player to access at that point in the quest.....

[Turbon714]

The shortened Hookshot is an interesting notion that I had forgot to consider; indeed it would limit the player's ability to stun enemies from a distance and still allow gaps larger than it's length to be used until say the Longshot could be acquired. You could also use the betas to possibly alter the properties of Wizzrobes and Darknuts to render them immune to the Hookshot so it cannot stun them.

Yeah, thats what I'm did in my (former?) quest. I adjusted the hookshot properties and allowed the player to get it by level 2 (?). I also left a couple medium-sized gaps around the overworld which led to alternate quest paths and optional bosses. I also left a couple large gaps for the longshot. Its a good weapon to give early on if you don't put too many wizzrobes and darknuts. Roc's feather would be a good choice if it didn't allow the player to jump direct warps used for cut-scenes.

[Linkus]

I don't think anyone sees the utter uselessness of the bait... Besides, in the betas, I believe you can still alter the Hunger value, which you can use to your advantage to distract the enemies, and right before you get something useful and causes damage, you can set up a "Feed the Goriya" room in order to make a trade.