29 replies to this topic

[Colin]

How do you design dungeons? What sort of planning goes into the process? Do you make a story behind your dungeon?

Of the few dungeons I have made, I would usually sketch out the floor plan on a piece of graph paper with rough ideas on what puzzles I want where.

[Russ]

Usually, I like to plan mine out on grid paper. The bigger ones, at least. If they're small enough, I just try visualizing them in my head and then designing them before I forget the plan. Needless to say, this way generally makes the final dungeon design slightly different than the original plan.

[Evan20000]

Depends on the complexity. Most of them I can just make them in my head before building them, but the more complex ones (level 7 of my quest...) required a significant amount of graph paper. It's a lot of work this way, but I love my giant, complex dungeons.

[Dawnlight]

Dawnlight's Way:

Map Structure -> Gameplay -> Detail

Map Structure: The layout of dungeon walls, lower areas, and water ways, as well as a prerequisite to how I will implement puzzles when focusing on gameplay.

Gameplay: The gameplay elements such as the puzzles, enemies, etc.

Detail: More like closing up the patient. Finishing all of the screens in the map with some nice detail like floor borders, wall items, etc.

[Orithan]

This is what I do:

1. Plot the layout on the map, merging any screens with each over to create larger rooms.
2. Plot where any treasures will be, denoted by chests on the map.
3. Carve paths through the various rooms on the map where Link will be traveling through (detnoted by lighter colours), including where Link will be going to other floors (denoted by staircases)
4. Determine what the doors will be.
5. Plot any final touches, like the locations of any bosses.
6. Lay out the general layout on the screens.
7. Add in the gameplay elements.
8. Add in any details.
9. Debug the dungeon.

[Lightwulf]

My method has changed since I started creating my first quest. (It's not finished yet, either.)

Orignially, I went with the classic Zelda dungeon design, where I first decided the overall shape of the dungeon map and made it fit with other dungeons like a puzzle. Then I would decide where to place the map, compass, boss, and major items, and at the same time decide what passageways to use to connect the rooms.

However, everything changed when I got to my level 8. I basically made a story behind the dungeon, like you were suggesting, and built everything off of that. But I made heavy use of drawing it on paper (but, since I don't have graph paper and because I'm an artist, I drew my own rectangles), mainly because I had multiple floors and I wanted to implement 3D travel into the dungeon (like going back down a floor or two to reach another room on a higher floor). Also, I used paper when I had down time away from the computer to work on my screen design; I actually drew tick marks and lines on the (drawn) screens so that I could make sure I had the spacing right and accurately place my combos when I got a chance to get back on the computer. I'm not saying you have to go that far, but it helped me get the thing done.
It took me about 6 months to finish that level, partly because of needing a ton of custom graphics. If you want to have a story behind a level, that's great; just be aware that you may need to make custom graphics to give it the feel you want.

Don't let me scare you away from using the idea, though. It takes time to make a quest in the first place. Plus, your level probably won't have the 8 floors that mine had (not to mention a couple of basement rooms)!

[kurt91]

What I do is I'll just wait for ideas to come naturally and write them down, whether they be from my mind wandering while doing chores or yardwork, or something that comes to me from a vivid dream. After a while, I have a long list of various ideas, including the rough beginnings to a plot.

At that point, I'll skim through my list of ideas, putting together bits and pieces that can fit together with my plot. For example, one idea involved having the Magic Book be something in particular you have to search for plot-wise to continue, having the Sages keeping it hidden in a safe location to prevent a villain from using it to get somewhere/something. Another idea involved an entire dungeon made out of a combination of house and furniture tiles, along with dungeon tiles, to try and make some sort of Great Library. This led to the finalized idea of having Link find a hidden room in Hyrule Castle where the ancient Sages used to do secret magic research, to find information on an old legend or myth that relates to what's going on now.

Some ideas come from other sources, such as music. I like picking through OCRemix and VGMusic and listening to the remixes of songs I like. I happened to find a mashup of the final boss themes from Sonic '06, Unleashed, and Colors, which gave me the idea of a recurring boss that you battle four times, with each individual song being used for the first three battles, and the mashup being used for the final fight. Combining this with an idea I had of the Master Sword being effective against evil villains because each strike seals away a potion of their dark powers, and I had the perfect idea of who the recurring boss should be: An old enemy (from an existing game) who, since they were essentially made from darkness, was sealed completely into the Master Sword upon defeat, rather than killed. As they were trapped over the ages, the countless battles against Ganon, and his dark powers being drained and sealed into the sword, actually increased their strength to the point where the seal is weakening. The Master Sword needs purified to be effective against the real villain (explaining the sword upgrades), but each time it's purified, the sealed villain has a chance to escape with that massive amount of accumulated power (explaining the recurring boss).

The only drawback to this approach is that I never actually try to force ideas to come. This means that I'll go for ungodly long stretches of time between bursts of inspiration and progress being made on my quest. Still, it's slowly coming along and I'll finish it one day.

[Anthus]

I tend to design dungeons around a particular theme or idea. This may be based on the item obtained within, or the thematic location of the dungeon. Once these elements are established, I draw it out on an 8x8 template that I printed, and get the basic layout down. This sketch has item and key locations, doors, and any special instructions on rooms, and puzzles.

I then draw it out in ZC starting with the walls, doors, and room shapes. I then add in any major details like water, lava, pits, bridges, and that type of stuff. I then go in and add puzzles (flags, and combos basically) to rooms, followed by enemies. Several playthroughs are then done to try and fine tune it and make it feel right. Final details such as floor borders, ornments, and other details are added in.

In some cases, I'll actually do each room completely in the order that you'd play it. I find this method to go smoother in ZC, yet it requires a lot more prior planning. I also do tend to go off on my own sometimes. I might draw a group of non-detailed rooms on my paper, then just wing it in ZC.

I always do the bosses last.

[Colin]

Here's another question, how many of you take the dungeon exterior into question?

I usually like to design my dungeons while taking the environment leading up to it as well as the structure of the building itself into consideration, so I can utilize the dungeon exterior as part of the atmosphere.

[kurt91]

I try to figure out what makes the interior of the dungeon special and unique, and then build the area around it afterwards. I think it's better if each dungeon has a truly unique setting and gimmick rather than "generic fire dungeon", "generic water dungeon", etc.

It's kind of fun to take two different themes and try and think of ways to combine them that make sense. For instance, how would you put together a fire dungeon and a water dungeon WITHOUT taking the typical "FreezeFlame" type of approach?

[Colin]

It's kind of fun to take two different themes and try and think of ways to combine them that make sense. For instance, how would you put together a fire dungeon and a water dungeon WITHOUT taking the typical "FreezeFlame" type of approach?

Castchaos did it really creatively in Ballad of a Bloodline. He made a Steam dungeon. Where the top floor was steam themed, and you could see water pouring down to the lava themed lower floor.

I agree though. Themes are important in dungeons. I guess my usual approach is sort of uncreative because I don't usually give dungeons an element when I plan them out. That's why I like to have a story behind mine.

Petriforest: A forest, that through some event became entirely petrified. Serves as a forest/stone dungeon
Underworld Sun Temple: Serves as a Light and Demonic dungeon.

Edited by Strato, 24 July 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[Xenix]

Okay, I guess I can add some input:

1) Structural design. Not too much walkability, not too little, but leave room for later development.
2) Obstructions. (small walls, stairs, holes, etc.) Plan where these will go and which ones will be needed for the room. This will start to give each room it's own structure and appeal.
3) Enemy selection and placement. This goes with the gameplay aspect of the screen. Obviously, don't cram 3 patras in a room with only 5 tiles of movement. small rooms shouldn't overwhelm the player. And bigger rooms shouldn't bore the player.
4) Puzzles. Very important aspect of gameplay here. Everything from a block puzzle to something using secret flags in a creative way really gives each room purpose.
5) Detail. Focus on this last as you may need to make changes during the first 4 stages.

There you go.

[peteandwally]

I think about layout first, based on whether it is outdoors or a structure of some sort. I plan routes accordingly and any area that might be out of the way or difficult to get to, I either put an item or a way to get somewhere else. Once there are several ways to get around, I add obstacles depending on the items link has, then block off a section based on the items you can find in the dungeon, if any. Finally, I put something you can't get without having done something non-linear in the game progression, but never make it important, maybe rupees or info.

[Jenny]

I usually just think of a gimmick and visualize a dungeon in my head, then I make it.

[NoeL]

EDIT: Forgive the long-winded, sloppy wall of text that follows. There were a few different ideas that I ended up writing down before fully defining everything, so some things might not be very clear.


First thing I do is "plan" the flow - and by "plan" I mean drawing a random scribble on grid paper that loops over itself a few times. This will be the path the player takes through the dungeon, which should translate to practically zero backtracking if the player knows where they're going. The advantage of doing this on grid paper is that it allows you to then join paths that are close to each other in order to break up the linearity (which you'll need to do, because just following a line isn't fun at all). For example, a section of path that looks like this:

Can be combined into something like this:


Where the paths cross over you have the option of creating crossroads, or setting up the dungeon so that each path is on a different floor of the dungeon. You might even want to cut a section of the track and expand it into another big looping complex, so rather than just going from point A to point B they go upstairs, traverse a different floor of the dungeon, then come back downstairs in a different part of the dungeon. This allows for longer and more complex "flow" than just using a single scribble, but you have to be careful not to introduce redundancy (which I'll talk about in the next paragraph).

Redundancy is, simply put, introducing unnecessary screens. You generally don't want to have screens that a knowledgeable player (i.e. someone that knows the dungeon layout) would never traverse. If you have extraneous loops and/or short cuts that are always accessible (I guess one would always entail the other) you're doing it wrong. There are two exceptions to this rule: the first being that you're not trying to design a Zelda-style puzzle dungeon and are instead going for a rogue-like maze dungeon (closer to Zelda 1 style), in which case dead ends and multiple paths are fine. The second exception is trap rooms, though in my opinion trap rooms should only be accessible via player error (e.g. falling in a pit) and not where the player walks into an otherwise normal-looking room only to have the door lock behind them and snakes drop from the ceiling. Those kinds of traps piss me off.

There should be a balance between "dynamic" screens and "static" screens. A dynamic screen is a screen that changes its purpose throughout the course of the playthrough. The simplest example of a dynamic screen would be a screen that has at least three doors, one of which is locked. It may initially act as a path between the two unlocked doors then change to a path between one door and the locked door, once you find a key. Static screens can be viewed as paths between dynamic screens, which usually have some obstacle (e.g. monsters or some puzzle). Note that while dynamic screens may often contain puzzles, a puzzle alone doesn't make a screen dynamic. If the puzzle only ever serves as an obstacle to a linear progression (e.g. push block -> open shutters) then the purpose of the screen never changes - it's static. You don't want too many static screens inbetween dynamic screens because it can become tedious and linear, but you don't want too few because they're the meat of your dungeon.

Dynamic screens are pretty much the dungeon's "event" screens, common examples include needing a key or item to open a new route, or a change in environment that alters possible ways to traverse the dungeon (e.g. everyone's favourite - alternating water levels). Wherever your scribble crosses over itself you have a potential for a dynamic screen.

You should also notice that crossing over an existing path creates a "loop". By following any path from a crossroad you'll eventually return to that same crossroad. When using crossroads as dynamic screens the idea is to make sure whatever is needed to trigger that event appears somewhere along the loop. For example, if you need a key to open up the crossroad you should be able to find a key somewhere along the loop that leads back there. A loop can be walking to and from a dead end, but you want to minimise backtracking so a one-way loop of screens is a better option.

One other thing I haven't talked about are side loops (or split loops). Side loops are deviations from the main route that come back on itself. These can be created by actually drawing a second line, or simply combining loops by not making a crossroad a dynamic screen. The purpose of adding side loops is that it breaks up linearity. For example, rather than going from a loop with a key to a locked door then another loop with a key to another locked door, you can have the two loops followed by the two locked doors. Both loops will have to be traversed in order to get both the keys, but the player can choose the order in which to do so.

So, you should now have a linear path (with the exception of side loops) from which you can chronologically chart in which order each dungeon event unfolds (an event is when a dynamic screen changes state). From there you can think up creative ways to trigger each event and place those triggers within their respective loops, whether it be boring things like finding a key or specific item, to something more interesting like changing water level, to something even more creative that pushes the boundaries of this trigger->event progression idea. The path/event list you end up with should be general enough to apply to any kind of dungeon, so you could potentially build a whole library of generic dungeon flows and pick one that you feel best represents whatever theme you want, or best fits whatever cool event you thought of. You just need to get your creative juices flowing to express that flow in a novel, themed, and interesting way.

Edited by NoeL, 25 July 2012 - 11:19 PM.