25 replies to this topic

[Haylee]

Finished up to the end of Level 5. 4 was a pretty neat dungeon, my favorite so far is still 3. 5 was almost my favorite, until the last part, which felt a bit silly. I don't actually mind the quest's core gameplay loop, which seems to be "Get everything you can before a dungeon, beat the dungeon, use the items you found in the dungeon to get everything you can before the NEXT dungeon, beat the dungeon, etc.". The quest seems to expect the player to be rather thorough, which does make it feel rewarding when you do find what you're looking for, but there's definitely some aspects of older ZC here that hold it back just a bit. The dungeons very much expect you to keep track of things you may need to do later as you pass by various secrets that require certain items, and it would be significantly easier to keep track of if dungeons had the spacebar map so you could double check things without having to backtrack. I'm still enjoying myself, but those cracks are definitely starting to show themselves.

[Moosh]

Beat levels 5 and 6. I really liked 6 to begin with but then in the end there were two keys in a row I had to look up in the editor, multiple key gauntlets full of padding, and overall twice as many screens as the dungeon actually needed. This is my biggest complaint with the quest I think. If every dungeon was half as long as they are I'd be less irritable, but the dungeons are doubling up on floors, doubling down on key gauntlets, and still consistently putting block puzzles in screens you're likely to pass through multiple times. I'm sure these dungeons were fine for the creator when knowing exactly where to go, but from a blind playthrough I'm finding them very tedious. Really souring my opinion of the later parts.

[Deedee]

Having beaten level 4; this dungeon is a huge fan of wasting your time with the one push block puzzle you have to repeat constantly and the key in front of the boss door.

If you're in the cave with the shields in the snow area, I recommend just candle boosting instead of timing, it's not worth it. Make sure you save a bomb for a bomb wall near the end. The cave is worth it.

I have no clue how to get the 3rd key for level 5; I don't know how to enter the overcast heavens; I figured it would be from the heaven path but it doesn't seem to connect.

[Deedee]

The guy who tells you "go look in the overcast heavens" is a liar; the third key for level 5 is in heaven's trail in an easily-missable path.

[Haylee]

Finished up to the entrance of Level 8. Level 6 was pretty neat. Had some really cool obstacles (And in particular cool ways to prevent cheesing them), and had some really cool puzzles. My only real critiques with it are that it definitely dragged on a bit and one of the final key puzzles pretty actively requires information from the info guy near the dungeon to solve with very little way to inuit on your own how to do it (I'm referring to the candle + whistle puzzle).

 

Level 7 is very much where I started to get a bit lost though. Without question, it is by and large my least favorite dungeon in the quest, and I will delve into much greater detail as to why in a much bigger amount of detail when I review the quest. The short version of it, however, is that while I completely understand what the quest is going for in terms of its design, I believe that it expects far too much legwork from the player in terms of memorizing every single potential secret along the way, to the point where Level 7 took me over 2 hours to finish.

Edited by Haylee, 07 January 2024 - 02:04 AM.

[Haylee]

 

Completed everything! I enjoyed this one quite a bit. The gameplay loop is interesting, but can get quite mind boggling at times trying to figure out where to actually go.

 

For the most part, I think the gameplay loop here is quite good. Exploring the overworld is fairly satisfying, and there's a ton of really neat secrets to find in almost every screen. It helps that the secrets are pretty consistent as well, often requiring the same trigger when you need a specific type of item. Remembering prior areas with item checks that you don't have yet is often quite satisfying, and the quest does a good job making me feel smart when it actually does work out that way.

 

The gameplay loop, however, isn't perfect. As many moments as there was of feeling smart after remembering specific secrets, I also unfortunately think it goes way too far in some areas, especially in terms of the quests absolute obssession with key gauntlets. Key collecting is entirely the name of the quest here, and I think this quest shows both the best and worst sides of this type of design. Level 8 is incredible, giving you all the information you need while not overloading you with it, and also not being inconvenient to travel through either, having shortcuts in very key places where its important to have. Level 7, however, is definitely this philosophy at its worse. Key gauntlet into dungeon item into key gauntlet into dungeon item into 3rd key gauntlet while also making the dungeon a hard to traverse maze makes it one of the most difficult to maneuver dungeons I've played in a ZC quest, and not in a particularly rewarding way either. These sections didn't ruin the quest for me, but damn did they come pretty close. Thankfully, the last few dungeons after 7 more than make up for it.

 

Now while this quest was definitely made later in 2.10's lifespan (2008 is very much late.), there's something to be said about how much impressive stuff this quest pulls off with the limitations of ZC in 2.10 that are very difficult to pull off even in 2.5+. I think a lot of it will probably be overlooked as there isn't a lot here that isn't doable in a significantly easier way in 2.5+, but things like the way objects poof after puzzles, the sheer volume of tiered secrets, and the abundance of screen state carry over wizardry is very much something to behold. As many issues as this quest has, this is something I will never take away from it.

 

There was some unique aspects of the quest that I was mildly disappointed in that aren't particularly worth criticizing, because I don't know if Pineconn is still active in the community. I think the inn mechanic was cool on the surface, but only 2 of the 5 inns having anything of value was a letdown. It's a fun idea though. The other thing is the music. I'm aware much of this was composed by Pineconn and their brother, and I do definitely wish them the best if they continue composing music, because there's definitely a strong foundation for good compositions here. I think the loops here are too much on the short side, as they did get quite repetitive after a while. It's not too bad with the shorter dungeons, but naturally, the longer I was stuck in a dungeon, the more maddening the song was. Both of these are relatively minor issues though, just things I feel the need to mention because they are what they are.

 

I have little to say about the story, since it seems pretty clear to me that the intent here, was to make a game first and a story second, but with how much it does play it safe, the intent here was very clearly to make as polished a Zelda as could be done in 2.10.

 

While I definitely think the quest stumbles in some incredibly key areas, the aspects of the quest I did like are quite large praise, and it was very much fun most of the time. I wish Pineconn the best wherever they may be. I'm gonna drop a low 4/5, Level 7 almost made me give it a 3, but I think it picks back up after that point.

Edited by Haylee, 07 January 2024 - 06:33 PM.

[Russ]

Alright, so lemme post some thoughts.

 

I think one of the biggest shames with the quest is that the start is by far the weakest part of it, which is sure to turn a lot of people off. Stumbling around the starting town to find the sword is kinda dull, and the swamp is a big straight line. The first two dungeons are also kinda weak. That's a big shame because the quest is, despite that, really good.

 

The overworld, on the whole, is lovely. It's big enough to feel vast, but small enough to be easily traversable. While it has a Hyrule Field (something a whole lot of quests at the time were enamored with), it doesn't fall prey to a hub and spoke overworld model, and I really appreciate it. Plenty to see, plenty to explore, and plenty of music to make each area feel unique. The sky areas being one to one with the overworld is also a nice touch, but unfortunately the sky areas do get somewhat repetitive. Part of that is 2.10 limitations, with Pineconn only being able to sacrifice two enemies to turn into sky foes, but there's also only so much you can do with the basic cloud tiles.

 

The dungeons are generally pretty good. Like Haylee explained, it's very much a key gauntlet kind of structure: Start->Find x keys->First dungeon item->Find x more keys->Second dungeon item->Find x more keys->Boss key->Boss. There's exceptions, but that's the general flow, and it generally works alright. Again, while recognizing 2.10 limitations, the dungeons do some pretty cool stuff. They do have a few big sins though. There's a few two many block puzzles, and often you're forced to go through the block puzzles over and over again. There's also times where way too much back and forth is expected of you. As an example, Level 4 has you go through one block puzzle SEVERAL times, and then near the end, has you go down a long gauntlet to the screen with the boss key to get a regular key, which you need to use to go back and get the boss key, which you then have to traverse the same gauntlet again with to reach the boss. It feels like needless padding. Level 7 has this problem in an even bigger way. It starts as a masterpiece of navigational puzzles, and is wonderful up to getting the first dungeon item. Then you have to find the second dungeon item, and it's a little trickier, and it starts to wear a bit thin. After that, finding the boss key is a matter of remembering a bunch of blocks you probably encountered 90 minutes ago in otherwise unremarkable screens, sometimes going back through huge swaths of the dungeon again. A 2.50 style dungeon map would help a lot in letting you view the whole dungeon to see where the triggers are, but it would only do so much to mitigate it.

 

With all that said the dungeons do have a lot of cool navigational stuff as well. For all my griping about Level 7, it really was great at first. Level 6 has something of the same problem of wearing too thin, but it also makes you think of the dungeon in three dimensions, and that's pretty cool. Level 8 is incredible, eschewing the usual dungeon flow of the quest and neatly solving every problem Level 7 introduced. Level 9 is also really good, with lots of cool puzzles that - recurring theme here - really pushed 2.10 to the limits of what it could do.

 

I've alluded to the music before, but it's pretty cool. The majority of the soundtrack is custom, and that really helps set it apart. The overworld tracks are generally really nice. The dungeon tracks, while a bit short in some cases, are often pretty good (though Level 2 is a bit of a swing and a miss). I do have to dock points for using the Minish Cap cave theme though. Why do people think using that track is ever a good idea?

 

On the whole, the quest isn't without its flaws. In a few places, it definitely tries to hard to be good-but-generic. The dungeons start out kinda weak, hit their stride, then start to get too drawn out near the end before snapping back to perfection with the last two. While the quest really pushes what 2.10 can do, it also is clearly very restrained by 2.10 in a couple of places. And certainly, it has to be viewed through the lens of the time it came out in. With that said, I think it still holds up pretty well, all things considered.

[Moosh]

I've gotta know for people who beat level 7, were you really intended to go out into the overworld and hammer a random old man to get a key? Was there a hint at this key's existence at least? I had to pull up Eppy's LP to find it. It seems like especially unhinged design for a quest this well regarded. Outside of the confusion and getting lost at the start, I somewhat enjoyed level 7. It had some baffling design decisions but the whole time through it felt like the dungeon was one step away from greatness. May be my favorite in the quest so far. It managed to hold my attention the whole way through and did not subject me to and horrid block puzzles. The key gauntlets were also mostly laid out in a sensible way, save for that one key.

 

At the start of level 8 now. I've heard good things about this one, so here's hoping it lives up to the hype.

[Deedee]

Finished Level 8.

All 3 dungeons after level 5 were a step up in quality; I didn't even hate level 7. When this quest isn't making you redo block puzzles, it's main flaw is not telegraphing how many keys you need before a key gauntlet.

This is going to be a hot take, but level 8 was merely okay. It had cool ideas, like how you pass by the boss way before you fight it, the moving platforms; and the tower structure means it's hard to get lost or wonder where you're missing something. The gauntlet to get the first dungeon item was what soured things for me, being a long trek only to get thrown into not one, but two difficult encounter rooms when the previous minidungeon basically mandates you use both of your potions of you have them with the lens check. The wizzrobe spam wasn't pleasant either, and the block puzzle with 3 statue shooters and 5 batrobes was not okay. I guess I do appreciate that a lot of the enemies in the dungeon (wizzrobes and darknuts aside) are weak to Din's Fire, which makes the thing you just got feel useful (I didn't actually know it did Master Sword damage). 

Definitely feel like Level 5 and the key hunt before it was the weakest point in the quest; with the second weakest being the swamp key hunt. I don't think the overworld key hunts are great design, at least the way they're handled, though I found the pre level 8 one inoffensive; maybe in part because the layered overworld was neat.

[Haylee]

I've gotta know for people who beat level 7, were you really intended to go out into the overworld and hammer a random old man to get a key? Was there a hint at this key's existence at least? I had to pull up Eppy's LP to find it. It seems like especially unhinged design for a quest this well regarded. Outside of the confusion and getting lost at the start, I somewhat enjoyed level 7. It had some baffling design decisions but the whole time through it felt like the dungeon was one step away from greatness.

One of the hint blocks (those ones attached to walls) in the dungeon directly tells you about the man you need to hammer, that's how I figured it out. Of course, that also requires actually finding the block, which I don't remember where it was.

Edited by Haylee, 13 January 2024 - 01:55 PM.

[Moosh]

One of the hint blocks (those ones attached to walls) in the dungeon directly tells you about the man you need to hammer, that's how I figured it out. Of course, that also requires actually finding the block, which I don't remember where it was.

So yeahhh, turns out it was the one at the main entrance. I had a Mooshblind moment and filtered out the first part of the tablet. Then never re-read it because it's the first one, why would I?