29 replies to this topic

[Orithan]

Superguides are a good design choice and a good move for the gaming industry in general. Why? This boils down to one simple factor: Accessibility.

Accessibility is a key quality in any game. It determines who can play the game and who can't as well as how long it will take the player to get used to the controls (to a certain extent). Usually, this will reflect the game's target audience and demographic.
Superguides help make the game more accessible to everyone, as they practically play the game for you. But why the heck are they good if that's what they do?
This is because they usually are completely optional. They are usually, in no way, required in any way to complete the game. To me, this is design that encourages anyone to play the game, regardless of skill level. This should be encouraged for the reason that they help people get into the game. For those who feel "babied" by them, you don't have to take the superguide because they aren't targeted towards you.

Most of the games that have superguides are Nintendo games, most notably the recent Mario games (Read: anything from Super Mario Galaxy 2 and beyond). These games are designed for everybody, regardless of skill level, to enjoy. A superguide helps to reinforce this notion - Non-gamers don't really have the patience nowadays to sink their teeth into a particularly hard game or getting out of a part they are stuck in.
Personally, I like having superguides for these types of games available because the devs will feel less inclined to alter the core game to make it easier for everybody in order to make it more accessible. As a result, they can make the game harder but yet still encourage anyone to enjoy it regardless of skill levels.

However, on a last note, a forced superguide is a very bad design choice, as it completely strips the ability for the player to do the level or segment for themselves after it is triggered.

Edited by Orithan, 02 March 2014 - 07:06 AM.

[TheLegend_njf]

Despite your argument, I dunno what they are really teaching players. I've seen kids play an entire game using super guides and than say stuff like "I mastered this game".

It's when children lose the value of actually earning it is when it becomes a problem.

But that's no different than the old days where everybody would turn to Nintendo Power.

[Orithan]

Despite your argument, I dunno what they are really teaching players. I've seen kids play an entire game using super guides and than say stuff like "I mastered this game".

It's when children lose the value of actually earning it is when it becomes a problem.

But that's no different than the old days where everybody would turn to Nintendo Power.

 

It's their choice, why should it be a problem with the game if they think they've mastered the game from just superguides? Especially it being an option. Just saying.

Tutorials are more or less the same in this regard, except they don't play the game for you, but merely show how to.

Edited by Orithan, 02 March 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[Evan20000]

So I disagree for completely different reasons. A well designed game has a linear difficulty curve where the game gets harder as you go. By giving the player the option to more or less "skip" a level, you're robbing them of the practice and skill set building needed to tackle the more difficult later levels, where they will inevitably use the superguide again and again. I mean sure, this lets everyone see the end of the game, but I can't imagine having to die X (The number of times required to activate the superguide) every level until the end will be very fun as opposed to if a player simply pushed themselves for a single level until they overcame it and developed the skills needed to finish the rest of the game normally. I dunno, the inclusion of the superguide that more or less autopilots things for you just feels...patronizing.

[Nicholas Steel]

Orithan, you forgot it also shows what you can do in the game and how to play it well. Evan2000 you would solve that by not relying on the same things level after level, instead you'd have interim levels that touch on what you're having trouble with, scattered about so you can eventually master the skill required for that one level that made heavy use of that skill you lacked.

Because of how 2D Mario games are designed these days, you can't do levels in any order you want (Without finding super secret warps) so once you hit a level demanding use of a skill you lack, you're boned. This is something Super Mario Bros 3. did fairly well, it gave you multiple choices fairly often when it came to choosing a level to play.

Edited by franpa, 02 March 2014 - 08:50 AM.

[KingPridenia]

When I was very little, I was playing Super Mario Bros and other games that were hard. They didn't give you a free pass just because you jumped off a ledge 5 times. Anymore, gamers don't have the skill older gen gamers do. My first time through Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time was a nightmare; did they have any superguides? Absolutely NOT. On the later courses of SM64, I was dying left and right and the game NEVER at any point showed me any mercy and gave me a free pass. Course 12's slide was the worst; don't even get me started on how many lives that took from me. How are you ever going to get real skill if you have the game hold your hand the whole time? Kids didn't need it back when SMB came out; they don't need it now.

 

To be fair though, I do notice the more recent Mario games do have really tough bonus worlds. But they still ruin it with the invulnerability leaf. Then again, a lot of the levels are so difficult even it won't save you. It can't protect you from lava, bottomless pits, being scrolled off-screen, getting caught in a hazard that's instant death such as the Fuzzy Swarm or toxic clouds and of course, timing out.

 

Now don't get me wrong. I wouldn't mind something like in God of War where if you're playing on a high difficulty and you keep failing, you can have the difficulty reduced. That's fine. What I don't like is how I could play NSMB Wii, just run straight into a Goomba a few times and have the game beat the level for me. However, if they did something like FORCE you to beat the level afterwards, I would be all for it. You know, kind of like a "This is how you beat World 5-4, now you try" kind of thing. And yes I'm aware the guide deliberately avoids the Star Coins and stuff. It's just why do games feel the need to hold your hand when back in the day you were forced to suffer failure after failure until you mastered the game? Anyone that beat Battletoads legit could testify. And I will admit I never got further than stage 6 myself. I know if I played the hell out of it I could (eventually) beat the game.

[Moonbread]

Back around the time I was born, my mom bought a Nintendo.  When my older brother couldn't get over the first pit in Super Mario Bros. even after a few tries, he just wanted to quit and go do something else.  And my mom sat him down and basically said, "You will not give up so easily.  My children will not be quitters."  Essentially, her philosophy was that if he couldn't try to persevere with a video game, how would he do against something out in the real world that makes him struggle?  The Superguide, when mandatory or even when it's an option but just beats the level for you, is taking that away from you.  It's taking away an opportunity for you to do it yourself, to feel proud when you beat something.  The Kraken battle in Shining Force 2 is infamous for being a pain in the ass, but I didn't look up a guide or a video on how to beat it when I was younger, I beat it through perseverance and sharpening my wits.  I feel like that victory would be meaningless to me today if I just had looked up a strategy on it.

 

So essentially, I have to disagree with the accessibility argument.  Not because I'm some 'hardcore gamer' or anything- I just think everyone is capable of getting past the obstacles on their own and I think that's the important thing that will be missed.  Getting past those hard levels and battles and realizing you did it yourself makes the game a lot more meaningful to you, I think.

[Ventus]

I like the super-guides, sometimes its helpful if you suck at a certain part of the game the game will come up and say "You suck let me do it for you" or to the extent of that.

Like with NSMBWii, I was having a lot trouble with that very last bowser boss, and then I got the super-guide to show up and I said hell let the game handle this bullshit final area. Without the super-guide I would have broke my wiimote in rage or my TV or something.

[KingPridenia]

@Scootaloo: That's a great mom you got there. Teaching you guys life lessons that early. My parents would have just told me to stop playing it until I was calmed down (I tend to have Gamer's Rage).

 

Taking an anecdote from my childhood (around 10-11 years old), I was playing Zelda II. I beat just completed Parapa Palace and was trying to beat Midoro Palace. I died many times, but I was frustrated just enough to want to, as my 10 year old mind called it, "getting revenge". My vengeance was rewarded as after a few game overs, I took out Helmethead. Then was Death Mountain. More rage, more frustration, more being hell bent on beating the damn level. My frustration carried me to the Island Palace where I was stuck on the Blue Ironknuckle for a few days. Even worse, I had to defeat one on a mechanical horse as the boss. Several game overs and one grounding occurred from it. Funny how the moment I got off being grounded, I kicked his ass from sheer rage alone.

 

The rest of the game followed suit until I got to the final road block. I did the Hidden Palace somehow without the Magic Key. Barba was nothing but a sea of game overs until I finally beat him. Then I was stuck; I didn't know where to go and I was trying to get all of my stats up to level 8 when on the overworld I accidentally used the hammer when my dad scared me. That's when I found out you could use it to knock out trees. So a week of knocking down EVERY tree on the map finally revealed to me the Magic Key, Spell and Thunder. Then the Great Palace...that took me weeks to get through. But after a lot of frustration, getting my parents to let me stay up an extra 15-30 minutes a few nights and adamant angry willpower, I finally killed Dark Link and ended Zelda II.

[Alucard648]

@Scootaloo: That's a great mom you got there. Teaching you guys life lessons that early. My parents would have just told me to stop playing it until I was calmed down (I tend to have Gamer's Rage).

 

Taking an anecdote from my childhood (around 10-11 years old), I was playing Zelda II. I beat just completed Parapa Palace and was trying to beat Midoro Palace. I died many times, but I was frustrated just enough to want to, as my 10 year old mind called it, "getting revenge". My vengeance was rewarded as after a few game overs, I took out Helmethead. Then was Death Mountain. More rage, more frustration, more being hell bent on beating the damn level. My frustration carried me to the Island Palace where I was stuck on the Blue Ironknuckle for a few days. Even worse, I had to defeat one on a mechanical horse as the boss. Several game overs and one grounding occurred from it. Funny how the moment I got off being grounded, I kicked his ass from sheer rage alone.

 

The rest of the game followed suit until I got to the final road block. I did the Hidden Palace somehow without the Magic Key. Barba was nothing but a sea of game overs until I finally beat him. Then I was stuck; I didn't know where to go and I was trying to get all of my stats up to level 8 when on the overworld I accidentally used the hammer when my dad scared me. That's when I found out you could use it to knock out trees. So a week of knocking down EVERY tree on the map finally revealed to me the Magic Key, Spell and Thunder. Then the Great Palace...that took me weeks to get through. But after a lot of frustration, getting my parents to let me stay up an extra 15-30 minutes a few nights and adamant angry willpower, I finally killed Dark Link and ended Zelda II.

Just imagine if you have to pay for each continue via microtransactions (like on arcade machines) in the remake of that game and getting Game Over in Great Palace simply deletes your save-game after bad ending sequence without any warning! 

[Koh]

Superguides shouldn't even exist.  What you do to accomodate skill levels of all players is have a difficulty setting.  Whether it be three options (Easy, Normal, Hard) or five options (Plain, Mild, Normal, Spicy, Hot), THAT is how you cater to skill levels.  Not having a game play itself, or bybass all obstacles.  That's foolish, and defeats the entire point of playing a game in the first place.  So whoever initially came up with the idea is nuttier than a squirrel's diet.

Edited by Koh, 02 March 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[DaLink]

I never ever used a super guide.

[strike]

Super guides ruin the entire point of the game: to get the satisfaction of beating it. They're stupid.

 

-Strike

[anikom15]

Mario is supposed to be easy. Even the old games were easy.

The super guide is dumb though because it's not a game at that point. I mean when a game becomes easier than Lego Star Wars you have to wonder why you are playing it.

[Aevin]

I'm all for global difficulty settings catering to different skill levels. That encourages players to improve enough to beat whatever difficulty they select, and then if they beat it successfully they might want to increase the difficulty and improve even more. Basically, it just makes a more gradual difficulty curve overall, but still lets the player improve to overcome challenges.

 

But being able to skip entire levels just says, "Okay, you don't need to try hard enough to improve! We'll give you a free pass! In fact, if you've tried and failed nine times, why not just fail intentionally the tenth to show you can't do it so we'll have pity and do it for you?" Yeah, that's not a positive life lesson, right there.

 

Also, I've occasionally died the requisite number of times and had to actually work to avoid the super powerups dropped in my path in Mario 3D land. It's insulting to have it offered and irritating to have to deliberately dodge them.