9 replies to this topic

[Hero_of_Hyrule]

I'm not very good at making a decent block puzzle. However, I do want to have some in my quest, so is there anyone out there who would be willing to make a few good block puzzles for me? Or, at least give me some guidelines to follow on making them?

[Radien]

Well... the best way to learn about ZC block puzzles is to play quests with a lot of them. Mr. Z makes some good ones. He just released Link's Birthday DX, which is also an excellent quest, so you might check it out. DarkFlameWolf has some pretty decent ones in Isle of the Winds, as well.

Most ZCers make use of arrow blocks. It's easier to design block puzzles with arrow blocks. You see, to use them you place a block-with-an-arrow combo down, and the arrow points in whatever direction(s) the block can be pushed: up, right, left, down, up/down, or left/right (for 4-directional blocks, use an unmarked block). Once you've placed an arrow block, you must put a flag on it. The flag should correspond to the arrow on the combo (up arrow = "Up" push flag).

In most of these kinds of puzzles, the designer first determines which block is intended to be pushed onto each switch. Then, he puts other blocks down which cannot be pushed onto switches because their "arrows" don't point in the right direction. The object is to move the "obstacle" blocks out of the way, then push the "usable" blocks onto the switches, one at a time.

If you scroll down in the "flags" menu, you'll come to a whole bunch of "push flags" about halfway through the list. It's up to you whether you allow each block to be pushed only once, or an infinite number of spaces (labelled "inf.") The ones marked "NS" (stands for "No Secret") will not trigger a secret merely by being pushed -- you must push them onto a Block Trigger for a secret to be triggered (Block Trigger is flag #66). Most block puzzles use "NS" flags, although some simple puzzles might require only one block-push to trigger.

Each time you push a block, it covers one tile and uncovers the tile behind it. Uncovering the tile means that ZC will refer to the "under combo." So, if you make the "under combo" a square of checkered floor, then you naturally only want the blocks to be pushed over checkered floor. To prevent buggy visuals, most people use "floor border" combos to define the area within which blocks can be pushed. Once the borders are placed, they use the "No Push Blocks" flag (which is flag #67) to define areas blocks cannot be pushed onto.

Hope all that jabber helps.

[Hero_of_Hyrule]

I already know how to make push blocks and all that stuff, I'm just not good at making a good puzzle that requires some thought to solve. Thanks for the advice anyway.

[Radien]

Okay, I'm sorry if I overexplained things. But I tried to give some general ideas as far as constructing them.

It's actually very difficult to give suggestions with words, because making block puzzles is 90% visual and doesn't necessarily have much rhyme or reason to it. The way ZC works, it's easier to make a puzzle like a Rubic's Cube (chaos --> order), than it is to make a logic problem (old order --> new order).

[Hero_of_Hyrule]

I'll just keep trying different things with blocks till I finally get something going. I'm good at doing alot of things on zquest, but making puzzles has never been one of them.

[Radien]

I'm sure with some messing around you'll at least be able to work out some puzzles that are at least interesting. To tell the truth, I have yet to encounter a multiple-block puzzle in a quest that I've actually disliked. It's hard to make them "excellent," but it's fairly easy to make them "good."

[HappyPuppet]

The way ZC works, it's easier to make a puzzle like a Rubic's Cube (chaos --> order), than it is to make a logic problem (old order --> new order).

Until you can effectively put tiered secrets into puzzles, that is true.

I have to say tiered secrets are one of the best ways to make a unique and challenging puzzle.

[Radien]

All tiered secrets really do in a block puzzle is to segment the puzzle. Unfortunately, most of my best ideas can't be done in ZC yet. For instance, it'd be great to have a puzzle where you push around blocks with pictures on the top and try to form them into one bigger picture, like the green Poe puzzle in OoT's Forest Temple.

Alas, this cannot be done yet thanks to the way block triggers work... For block triggers, it's "one-size-block-fits-all."

However, I can report that it's possible to make good puzzles without arrow blocks, if you plan them out carefully. The blocks need to be really close together in order for it to require careful thought, though.

[HappyPuppet]

All tiered secrets really do in a block puzzle is to segment the puzzle.

And that in itself can do wonders.

Combined with the concept of using spikes that player must push a block over before walking on, you can force the player to have to push down some spikes before proceeding to the second segment.

Another thing tiered secrets can do is a whole different kind of puzzle. Rather than trying to push a bunch of blocks onto switches, put a whole bunch of blocks (16 max) on the screen and put flag 2 (single push with secrets) on all of them. Then put flag 16 on whatever is blocking your way (maybe a sealed chest) and have it cycle through as many secret flags as you have blocks, until the end when it finally opens. With a clever arrangement of blocks, you can make a very tricky puzzle.

Making puzzles really is much more than just randomly laying blocks down. There are creative things to do, and even the most basic block puzzle can be pretty difficult.

[Radien]

Well, Happyman, that all depends on how narrowly you define "block puzzle." Ideas as creative as that come on the fly, and it's really impossible to give much advice on how to come up with them. They're rather "right brain" types of puzzles.

I sort of assumed that HoH was having trouble with the more mathematical/logical types of puzzles, because some very creative people may still have trouble figuring out how to make a puzzle where you have a ton of blocks to push in the right order and direction. It's exactly the same type of thinking that's required to create your own crossword puzzle: you have to imagine the process the player will go through, only backwards.

For the record, I think a good Zelda game should have both types of puzzles. Creativity puzzles require you to free your mind; logic puzzles require you to focus it.

Happyman, I wonder what you'd think of the wind temple block puzzle I came up with recently...