39 replies to this topic

[Giggidy]

Not at all. You can steer away from the Zelda formula even in 1.90, the formula of course being an overworld dotted with sequential dungeon levels that hide a triforce/items. ZC can make any kind of top-down action adventure game - it doesn't have to involve looking around for dungeons.

Perhaps we are holding different ideas of divergence. I was thinking of an old-style turn-based RPG or a top-down shooter or a 3-D platformer or something.

[Mitchfork]

Perhaps we are holding different ideas of divergence. I was thinking of an old-style turn-based RPG or a top-down shooter or a 3-D platformer or something.

Those things are possible, but I always have to question whether its justifiable to script things like that given that more flexible game maker programs exist. ZQuest is great because it doesn't require you to do anything to make a top-down adventure work, and scripting is great because you can make a lot of small (or big) modifications to make a game unique. Even though its been done, I don't know if its any easier to script a totally different genre in ZQ than code that genre in something else.

I wouldn't tell anybody not to try it, though. It's just another case of really having to know the pros and cons of the program you're working with, and your own ability.

[Orithan]

My input on this is NEVER, EVER, make a big quest as your first project, make it more like your second or third project. As a SMILE and Lunar Magic user, I have gotten into the world of gamedesigning before, and I'm not dropping this skill anytime soon.

I know that my plans for Diamond Quest are big; 5 BS overworlds, 12+ Dungeons, 90 Heart Container Pieces, scripted bosses, almost all items + extras and such. I have a big attention span and moderate scripting knolege, so I feel confident buliding a quest twice as big as my Platinum Quest, on and off. Besides, Diamond Quest is almost 40% done *points to sig* and I have most of the rest of the game planned out, which means that there is a relativley poor chance of me canceling it.

Edit: And anyway, the Touhou series are perfect exampes of great japanese (I refuse to say "indie") games. Short, simple and challenging with pleasing graphics and music to complent it. The reason I liked 12 the least out of the series was that I felt it was too gimmicy for a Touhou game (Red, Blue and Green UFOs, anyone?).

Edited by Orin XD, 12 April 2011 - 07:08 PM.

[Old-Skool]

While this topic may or may not have noble intent, it also stifles some questmakers. Sure the projects might never get finished, but if they want to try it, let them.

[NoeL]

I wasn't trying to debunk the whole topic, just that one line which supports the belief that "The big corporations always know best".

That was never implied. I said big corporations have more resources which allow then to create higher-quality/quantity content. Minecraft, while awesome, lacks the sheen and depth of a "corporate" game. That doesn't make it bad, and on the contrary it shows that you don't need to aim for that "corporate" level of quality to create a great game (or "toy" in the case of Minecraft).

And yeah, Touhou 12 sucked. 12.8 was sweet though!

[Jared]

You know how I learned a lot from Zelda Classic?
When I was still a newbie?
Well, the first tileset I used was DoR. Yep, when people told me NOT to use it, I did.
And you know what came out of it?
Learning. I learned a lot. About editing tiles, using them right, adding details, all of it.

And you know what came out near the end?

http://img251.images...7/zelda002j.png
http://img820.images...2/zelda003m.png

See what came out of it? If people aim their stakes high, and DON'T succeed like I did, you still gain from it. Look at that overworld, for someone new at the time.
Thus, ends my thoughts.

Edited by Lynker, 16 April 2011 - 04:08 PM.

[Schwa]

Wow, NoeL, I did not expect to stumble across a thread like this. This really made my morning-- said a lot of things I probably needed to hear, or be reminded of at least.

I myself am in the process of creating one of these "epic quests", though the style I approach mine is vastly different from the average joe; I don't plan ahead, I can't plan ahead. What I do is tack stuff on when the ideas pop into my head, then constantly go back and smooth out the rockiness over the big picture as the quest slowly increases in volume. All my major Quests have sorta been like that; they're more-or-less a sandbox for my own wild and unharnessed creativity, then they just get refined later to make an actual playable game out of the random stew of ideas.

Really, that's exactly how my brain and my thoughts are wired to work, too. A cluttered mess of turbulent, scattered thought streams that I'm tasked with manually organizing when I happen to need them. Habits die hard I guess.

That said, there's this line here that I strongly oppose:

If you're going to undertake a big quest - or ANY quest - you should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS plan it out on paper before you even THINK about opening zQuest. You need to have a solid paper blueprint first, then do all the boring parts (i.e. actually building it in zQuest), then the fun bits (i.e. playtesting).

Makes me cry to see this. You think the building part is boring?? Geez loueez, man, it's the playtesting that's boring, the building is the AWESOME part, not the other way around! I don't think I will ever see it from your perspective, and quite honestly my blood curls to think that you actually have this opinion on Quest design.

The rest of your points were excellent for me to hear, though. During the implementation of my own Quest endeavors, it's too easy to forget that the simplest solutions to things work best; when I find myself struggling now, I can remember some of the words in this thread, and maybe the alternate perspective will help me overcome my adversities. Thanks.

The fact is that although fairly rare, the common people can outdo the so called "professionals". To quote myself: "Nintendo isn't god, and what they do isn't always right."

Mind if I siggy this?

Really the only difference I see in professionals vs. us is that they have money and training, and we don't. You can't put a label on talent or potential, though, you never can. (Even if you try, it won't stick, you know.) I often feel intimidated when I take on a huge scripting task alone, that professionals get paid to know how to do and my venturing into it is like venturing into a high-level dungeon early in the game with only the weakest equipment... It's all good, though, because again, my works with ZC is my way of venting, and I wouldn't be here if it's not what I wanted in my heart.

Also I don't think Quest design, or any game design, is about "right" or "wrong". We all have a vision of something in our hearts and minds, and subconsciously we strive to release such things and to witness them as reality. That's where the call to game design, or writing, or animating, or anything else of a similar nature, first begins, and the rest, as they say, becomes history. I guess in that sense, you and I have an advantage over the professionals; along the way, sometimes other things blur the vision in our hearts such as money, and you and I don't have to worry about that to cloud our walks. Be grateful, I say.

[trudatman]

....Mind if I siggy this?...

http://www.purezc.co...showtopic=48547
http://www.purezc.co...showtopic=49744

Enjoy the moment with all your might-- ~do the impossible, see the invisible~
--whether it's gloomy, whether it's bright. ~touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable~ Raw, Raw, Fight the Power!!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
* "Project RCS" * Update Table
Recently Worked On (4/29/11)
♪ The Passive Subscreen is FINALLY finished! About freaking time, right? I have all the necessary Counters, plus skeleton outlines for all the future plans that will require scripts (such as the Boss Health Meter during boss fights) so I know where to draw primitives etc.
♪ Fixed the math glitches for the Skirmish battles! It now calculates your Time Bonus, Technique Bonus and awards the proper amount of Rupees with no bizarre freestyling on the computer's part. ^^
Priority To-Do List
♪ The addition of the new Sword physics broke a couple other things, regarding enemies and such. These must be remedied.
♪ The Sword physics themselves are glitched. The Collision data of all the sword attacks need to be improved and polished from what it is. The Rapid Frenzy attack also does not detect when an enemy is Pinned quite right (close, though), and the graphics for the Spin Attack charging are in a "beta state" at best, one could say.
♪ Items that need re-working or creating period: the Slingshot, the Raven's Feather, the Throwable Hammer, and several minor equipment items/story items. The Boomerang is also slightly glitched.
♪ Enemies that need re-working or creating: the Devilmouse has glitched collision data, the Goriyas have glitched physics, the Peahats, Stalfos, Leevers, Moblins and Megmets are being re-done from scratch, plenty of Enemy Editor info is being re-done as well, and the upcoming overworld enemies Ward Idol, Rollo Kiki, Pokey, Lanmola, Bago-Bago and the mini-boss Hinox have been conceptualized.
♪ Locations that need re-working or creating: the caves underneath "Brambles" Area are closer to being finished. "Dustbowl" Area, to the north, will require a new Palette. Existing areas may or may not get new Palettes and Dmaps. Golden Mage's Hideout still needs to be assigned proper cutscene workings (auto warps, other technical arrangements, etc.).
This game is already a monster, but I WILL get it done. One step at a time. Wax on, wax off.
The fact is that although fairly rare, the common people can outdo the so called "professionals". "Nintendo isn't god, and what they do isn't always right."

[HollowKnight]

I have been here before. It never works out, this is good advice.

[Schwa]

Enjoy the moment with all your might-- ~do the impossible, see the invisible~
--whether it's gloomy, whether it's bright. ~touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable~ Raw, Raw, Fight the Power!!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
* "Project RCS" * Update Table
Recently Worked On (4/29/11)
♪ The Passive Subscreen is FINALLY finished! About freaking time, right? I have all the necessary Counters, plus skeleton outlines for all the future plans that will require scripts (such as the Boss Health Meter during boss fights) so I know where to draw primitives etc.
♪ Fixed the math glitches for the Skirmish battles! It now calculates your Time Bonus, Technique Bonus and awards the proper amount of Rupees with no bizarre freestyling on the computer's part. ^^
Priority To-Do List
♪ The addition of the new Sword physics broke a couple other things, regarding enemies and such. These must be remedied.
♪ The Sword physics themselves are glitched. The Collision data of all the sword attacks need to be improved and polished from what it is. The Rapid Frenzy attack also does not detect when an enemy is Pinned quite right (close, though), and the graphics for the Spin Attack charging are in a "beta state" at best, one could say.
♪ Items that need re-working or creating period: the Slingshot, the Raven's Feather, the Throwable Hammer, and several minor equipment items/story items. The Boomerang is also slightly glitched.
♪ Enemies that need re-working or creating: the Devilmouse has glitched collision data, the Goriyas have glitched physics, the Peahats, Stalfos, Leevers, Moblins and Megmets are being re-done from scratch, plenty of Enemy Editor info is being re-done as well, and the upcoming overworld enemies Ward Idol, Rollo Kiki, Pokey, Lanmola, Bago-Bago and the mini-boss Hinox have been conceptualized.
♪ Locations that need re-working or creating: the caves underneath "Brambles" Area are closer to being finished. "Dustbowl" Area, to the north, will require a new Palette. Existing areas may or may not get new Palettes and Dmaps. Golden Mage's Hideout still needs to be assigned proper cutscene workings (auto warps, other technical arrangements, etc.).
This game is already a monster, but I WILL get it done. One step at a time. Wax on, wax off.
The fact is that although fairly rare, the common people can outdo the so called "professionals". "Nintendo isn't god, and what they do isn't always right."

Okay, you are just the worst kind of person. I don't need to take that kind of slander. *mumbles and leaves*

Edit: Okay see, look, I added your quote, and my sig is still not as long as your post makes mine out to be, because I use the smaller text and it's in a different color so it's readable.

Yeah, I know my sig is kind of big, and if it irks you enough to take a pot-shot at my integrity like that, okay yeah I'll consider compromising a bit and trimming some of the blue text. Could you have maybe, I dunno, told me that before-hand instead of mocking me in the public eye?

You've lost my respect and my kindness. Have a good weekend or whatever.

Edited by Schwa, 30 April 2011 - 12:46 PM.

[Nathaniel]

trudatman: Not cool. Not cool at all.

The fact that you devoted your entire post to attacking Schwa not only makes it off topic, but it's clearly trolling. Your personal annoyances don't need to disrupt the thread and thus result in being an annoyance to others. Would have been better as a PM, and certainly with at least an ounce of tact.
May I also remind you of what TS said in the older of those two topics you linked to, thus why it got closed. You clearly haven't listened.

I have nothing more to add to this thread myself, so I apologize for the interruption my post has also made. So lets move on, please.

[William]

in the older of those two topics you linked to, thus why it got closed. You clearly haven't listened.

According to the topic you linked to, it's "thrus".

As for what Noel said: I couldn't agree more. To tell the truth, I think I prefer smaller quests anyway, rather than "big epic quests".

[trudatman]

of course we should move on, but "worst kind of person" and "attacking" and "a pot shot at my integrity" and "slander" and that stuff? really? not at all. should have PM'd, agreed.

....I added your quote, and my sig is still not as long as your post makes mine out to be, because I use the smaller text....

on my screen, the signature is somehow longer than what I posted as a copy. simply, your signature is huge and annoying. maybe you could keep the quest update stuff in a linked location, saving several inches every time you post. my suggestion is having a link or two, between the quotes or whatever, that bring curious viewers to another thread or site in which the details are given. surely we do not need to see the many detailed specifics of your recent questmaking in every post you make, right?

on topic: I use a balance of paper planning and just winging it on the fly. I have made a couple of large quests and I'm currently working on two smaller ones. the better of my large quests had a fair amount of paper planning and the bad one had almost none. the as for the smaller ones, for one I planned quite a lot on paper before starting and that has worked quite well, but many of the ideas need to be modified based on the realities of the engine. for the other, I've planned nothing at all on paper and very little before just doing it, mostly because the idea(s) is (are) extremely simple. I think planning on paper works quite well for larger quests, but the "epic" ones probably need a balance of preplanning and just working, due to the scope of the projects.

[Anthus]

I think that most quest makers, and players for that matter have a relatively short attention span. I mostly agree with the notion that simplicity is better than trying to make a huge epic quest, cause more than likely, you won't finish it (speaking for myself, from experience here.) A fun, quality 8-hour quest is better than a huge, complex "epic" quest IMO. If I want to play a Gameboy style Zelda, I'll play a Zelda title on Gameboy. If I want some huge, orchestrated story, I'll play a console Zelda. If I want a quick Zelda fix, and want to stab some stuff, I'll play a quest like End of Time, or Ganon's Claim. These are good examples of quests that are somewhat simple, yet remarkably fun gems.

I agree with Old-Skool about letting them try, and hey, if you enjoy doing it for fun, and don't really care about finishing anything, more power to you. All my projects were doomed as I always want to add more, and more before what I even originally had planned* is even done.

I really don't think there is a -right- or -wrong- way to build your project. There are methods of planning, and organization which can help, but all in all, it comes down to the person, and how much time the are willing to spend.

* Not really planned at all, actually... like, maybe a few ideas, and lines on paper.. but not really.. planned >.>

[Schwa]

Okay, so now I'm a little worried about mine. If I spend a couple years making this Quest, finally finish it after that, then it turns out nobody's interested enough to play through the whole thing (such as Anthus), what then?

Here's a good question: How do Quests like Hero of Dreams, Ballad of a Bloodline, and Lost Isle come into play here? We all know those are three good examples of epic-sized games, and they seem to be insanely popular, but what you're indicating would be a contradiction if it were true. So I'm completely befuddled now. Don't know what to think.

Is this a terrorist thread?

(to trudatman) That's bizarre. My sig's text should be half the size of normal text. What web browser are you using (and what OS)? Perhaps you should monkey with some settings, 'cause if my sig is that large on your window, something's not right with your settings.

As for my updates: I used to have an update thread, but I don't have it anymore. For... reasons.

Edited by Schwa, 30 April 2011 - 08:37 PM.