7962 replies to this topic

[Mero]

EDIT: Does the red rupee look out of place? You need the boomerang to pick it up.

Edited by blackbishop89, 23 November 2011 - 10:49 AM.

[Sheik]

Very nice, James. Though, I notice barely anything new in BSMC since you've taken over work on it. I take it you've been focusing on mapping and sprites rather?

Edited by Yoshimi, 23 November 2011 - 10:10 AM.

[Moo2wo]

@Bourkification: You have way too much open space on top of the mountains, provided you can't access them. Throw some more trees in up there. Also, that water in the bottom-right corner should be less square.

The biggest problem, though, is your screen has no "flow", which is hard to get when you don't have exits going off the sides. Rather than hunt down screenshots that I think demonstrate this well, I'll just pull a few screens from my own quest:



Not meant to sound bigoted or anything, I just didn't want to hunt screenshots down by other people.

But anyways, I think it could work here if you try to get the flow going from the water on top of the screen to the water in the bottom right. Your layout right now is too square, though.

It's an excellent screen, it just needs some work.

[Moonbread]

Why does it need those details, though? It's not meant to be a screen for getting from one place to the other, from what I see. Looks more like a, "You stumbled upon a secret room in a cave/wherever, and it brought you to the surface with a random treasure," considering it only has one way to get onto the screen. Your argument really doesn't make sense, there's more than one type of screen, dude.

[Marco]

You don't understand how bad I want to travel the celestial realm.

*That green/red heart will either boost heart or magic capacity

[Sheik]

Looks like the crossbreed of LoZ an Metroid. Certainly interesting. However, Link's colours look kinda unfitting.

[Jared]

Rip it to shreds.

Very well done, Jimmy! All the colors fit nicely, but the bushes look so strange completely straight like that. You're a ZC God!

EDIT: Does the red rupee look out of place? You need the boomerang to pick it up.

I don't like this at all. Like I said before, this also need more wall details. The rupee looks fine, though.

[Mero]

@Jared Why don't you like it? Beside the walls lacking decoration.

[Jared]

You put the walls too close to the middle. This leaves less room for things walkable. Put those coconuts, too. Those help make it more beachish.

[Mero]

Removed the 2 large plants and replaced most of the small objects with beachy objects. Anybody got volleyball net sprites.

Edited by blackbishop89, 23 November 2011 - 01:47 PM.

[kurt91]

You put the walls too close to the middle. This leaves less room for things walkable.

Removed the 2 large plants and replaced most of the small objects with beachy objects. Anybody got volleyball net sprites.

Um... Wait a minute. What exactly was wrong with it the first time? The way I see it, in a dungeon there are two types of rooms: "Get from Point A to Point B", meaning crossing through it to reach another room, or "Get an item here, then leave", which is pretty self-explainitory. (There're more ways to make a dungeon, I know, but I'm simplifying this down so I'm not writing an essay here.)

If you're in a "Get from Point A to Point B" room, then I would agree with Jared. Having to squeeze through a crapload of decorations just to get to the next door is rather irritating. In that case, there should always be a fairly large area to move around. Also makes fighting feel more natural.

Right now, I see a single door, and a Rupee. No bombable walls (I hope. There should ALWAYS be a way to visually see if a bomb is needed. ALWAYS!!!), and I doubt the flippers are included in this dungeon, meaning the ocean route is not possible either. This means that this is a "Get item and get out" type room.

I don't know about you, but if I were playing this game, I would walk down to grab the Rupee, and realize I can't reach it. A quick visual skim of the room doesn't show any type of puzzle, so I would figure an item is needed to grab it. My first guess would be the Hookshot/Boomerang. If I don't have them, I would just turn around and leave, assuming this room to simply be a way to foreshadow what item I'm looking for.

This entire room, and my route is merely walk inside, turn around, and walk back the way I came. If that's going to be the case, then why not fill the room with stuff to make it look pretty? Since there is so little "practical" walking space, I liked the first one better. The unnecessary portion of the room were visually filled. I'm not going to be walking over there, so put whatever you want in there. After the change, in my eyes, it feels too empty.

Now, the way your dungeon appears to be built, I'm assuming that you can't walk in the water, right? If you can walk far enough in the shallows that you can travel to the left or right of the screen and reach a new room, then you should probably stick to putting decoration near the bottom-center. If the slanted area is just barely enough to keep you in here, then I just realized that a beach dungeon can have secret rooms by walking through the straightaway shallow waters. I am liking your beach idea more and more as I see it!

On another note, I like the graphics surrounding the Rupee. Is it meant to be a hole in the sand? I'm automatically thinking of some sort of monster, like those bugs that live in a pit and wait for smaller bugs to fall in. Or some monster like those Rupee-Likes from Minish Cap (Oh god, I hated those things. I never trusted a Rupee again. When I get around to getting Skyward Sword, I'm going to soil myself if those are in the game, this time in 3D...)

*screenshot*

Wow... Just, Wow... I love Minish Cap's graphics. While I normally don't like the BS Zelda cliffs at all, you using them as though they were Game Boy/Minish Cap style cliffs, and it ACTUALLY WORKING looks awesome. It's familar enough that I see the geographical layout patterns I prefer, and it's different enough from the GB/MC graphics that it seems brand new.

Your subscreen looks very nice, like something I would want so see in a new handheld Zelda. (Why the hell don't we have ZC for handhelds?! Honestly, it would be awesome on a R4/DSTT card! I would never put it down!!!)

The ONLY thing I would possible change, if at all, is to move the two bushes on the right down a single tile. It would still work the exact same functionally, it's just that the single straight edge in an entire natural-looking and sloping Overworld screen stands out a bit too much.

Can you believe that screen looks so awesome, that the only complaint anyone has been able to muster is about a single set of bushes? And it's not even a major problem, just a petty little preference...

Edited by kurt91, 23 November 2011 - 03:07 PM.

[Sheik]

For very much the same reasons as kurt91 pointed out I liked the first version of the screen better than the second one. What I would change would be moving that rupee to an island in the water in the lower half, making it more obvious that you need to boomerang it and to weigh out the large blank space in the lower half (and thusly harmonize the compostion).
The skull and rock next to the door could be replaced with 2 tile high torches to pretty the room up a little bit.
Eventually, if you are any good at editing palettes (I for one consider myself rather bad, though I for example made the palette in James' screenshot if my memory doesn't fail me) than I would suggest to make this dungeon brighter and provide a generally happy colour theme, as that'd flow much better with the idea of a "beach dungeon" (which is an interesting take on the water theme, thumbs up!).

Edited by Yoshimi, 23 November 2011 - 04:14 PM.

[Schwa]

Kurt, can I take a minute to debate a couple of your points?

If you're in a "Get from Point A to Point B" room, then I would agree with Jared. Having to squeeze through a crapload of decorations just to get to the next door is rather irritating. In that case, there should always be a fairly large area to move around. Also makes fighting feel more natural.

See, I think that depends on the room. In most cases yes, more maneuverability and less clutter is better design, but if the player goes 3 rooms of that and then is suddenly fighting 4 Gibdos, 2 Vires, 2 Keese and 2 Red Wizzrobes in a cramped and bizarrely-shaped space, that's not the "ugghhhh" factor, that's the "OH SHI--" factor, which is excellent design if you know what you're doing in making your dungeons. You should still try to make it aesthetically pleasing, though!

Right now, I see a single door, and a Rupee. No bombable walls (I hope. There should ALWAYS be a way to visually see if a bomb is needed. ALWAYS!!!)

To me, it makes more sense not to alert the player when walls are bombable, and to make it more obvious on the Minimap that "there's no way into this room other than bombing here here or maybe here". But that might just be because I am an NES LoZ junkie, and "that's how we do things in MAH neighborhood". Oh, or an Old Man/Signpost/Inscription riddle. Put an Aquamentus in a dead-end, have a tombstone somewhere else in the dungeon that says "R.I.P. Sir Sigmund, fought to find the Dragon's Secret Treasure but had no clue what wall it was hidden behind", make the player read that and go "OH WAIT, that dead end with the Aquamentus was weird! What if I Bomb it or try to walk through it??" and presto, cue player excited squeal as Progress is made through the dungeon.

Good game design teaches the players, people! And even better game design comes back around a full circle to teach the author. Never be satisfied with familiarity!

Or some monster like those Rupee-Likes from Minish Cap (Oh god, I hated those things. I never trusted a Rupee again. When I get around to getting Skyward Sword, I'm going to soil myself if those are in the game, this time in 3D...)

Mimic monsters! Everyone's FAVORITE! Talk about an absolute nightmare, in ANY RPG or Adventure game.

Anyway you just gave me the splendid idea to script a monster like this. I'll credit you when/if I do.

[Bourkification]

Wh-what ARE you?? No human being could create something so sexy in ZQuest. *bows to your seraphic ZQ poetry*

My favorite part about this shot is the fact that you use the BS mountain tiles better than I've ever seen them before. Second favorite part is the water shorelines. Very smooth. This shot is just so balanced and colorful and brilliant and it makes me want to hug someone! Aaahhhh~

Thanks, those are some of the kindest words I've received!

Very nice, James. Though, I notice barely anything new in BSMC since you've taken over work on it. I take it you've been focusing on mapping and sprites rather?

Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head actually. I haven't done much at all in the overworld graphics, mainly making item sprites, subscreens and mapping. This is the first screen and first time I've touched ZQ in at least two months.

@Bourkification: You have way too much open space on top of the mountains, provided you can't access them. Throw some more trees in up there. Also, that water in the bottom-right corner should be less square.

The biggest problem, though, is your screen has no "flow", which is hard to get when you don't have exits going off the sides. Rather than hunt down screenshots that I think demonstrate this well, I'll just pull a few screens from my own quest:



Not meant to sound bigoted or anything, I just didn't want to hunt screenshots down by other people.

But anyways, I think it could work here if you try to get the flow going from the water on top of the screen to the water in the bottom right. Your layout right now is too square, though.

It's an excellent screen, it just needs some work.

Yeah I get what you're trying to say with the flow, I tried giving it some flow with the shape and direction of the dirt path. I'm not quite happy with the shapes of the water as well, do you have any diagonal water tiles I could use?

Why does it need those details, though? It's not meant to be a screen for getting from one place to the other, from what I see. Looks more like a, "You stumbled upon a secret room in a cave/wherever, and it brought you to the surface with a random treasure," considering it only has one way to get onto the screen. Your argument really doesn't make sense, there's more than one type of screen, dude.

The screen does only exist to have a chest there, so you're right in saying it's not meant to be a screen you exit out of more than one way.

Very well done, Jimmy! All the colors fit nicely, but the bushes look so strange completely straight like that. You're a ZC God!

Wow... Just, Wow... I love Minish Cap's graphics. While I normally don't like the BS Zelda cliffs at all, you using them as though they were Game Boy/Minish Cap style cliffs, and it ACTUALLY WORKING looks awesome. It's familar enough that I see the geographical layout patterns I prefer, and it's different enough from the GB/MC graphics that it seems brand new.

Your subscreen looks very nice, like something I would want so see in a new handheld Zelda. (Why the hell don't we have ZC for handhelds?! Honestly, it would be awesome on a R4/DSTT card! I would never put it down!!!)

The ONLY thing I would possible change, if at all, is to move the two bushes on the right down a single tile. It would still work the exact same functionally, it's just that the single straight edge in an entire natural-looking and sloping Overworld screen stands out a bit too much.

Can you believe that screen looks so awesome, that the only complaint anyone has been able to muster is about a single set of bushes? And it's not even a major problem, just a petty little preference...

The bushes are like that to give a more 'Zelda cannon' feel to the game. In MC it wasn't uncommon to see bushes or trees in a row like that.

[kurt91]

To me, it makes more sense not to alert the player when walls are bombable, and to make it more obvious on the Minimap that "there's no way into this room other than bombing here here or maybe here". But that might just be because I am an NES LoZ junkie, and "that's how we do things in MAH neighborhood".

Well, my main complaint with most games I've played in Zelda Classic is that bomb-walls are used far too often. It's been too common for me to be stuck with absolutely no solution except to bomb every single possible wall in the area, and then spend countless hours searching for more bombs. I liked how the LA/Oracle games did it, how most bomb-walls were cracked/discolored slightly, and the "secret" ones could still be discovered by tapping it with the sword. That way, there was a way to find out if it was a route to take without having to lose resources to check.

I suppose what I'm saying is I don't mind bomb-walls as long as there's an easy way to check if it is one, whether it's a visual cue or even an audio cue like the sword-tap. You mention having a hint somewhere that brings up the bomb-wall, and I agree that it's a good idea. It's a hint to tell where it is, you're not just blindly blowing up everything in sight, praying for a way forward.

Anyway you just gave me the splendid idea to script a monster like this. I'll credit you when/if I do.

My younger sisters are sitting and reading everything over my shoulder. Apparantly they like your sense of humor a lot, they couldn't stop laughing at the look on my face on reading this! Now I'm going to have to be paranoid on ZC too.

In MC it wasn't uncommon to see bushes or trees in a row like that.

Good point. Well, in that case, I suppose I don't have anything else to say, really. It's a great screen, you should consider entering it in SotW. Is your entire quest going to feel really Minish Cap-like? That has to be my favorite handheld game.

(Boy, I feel a lot more useful when I have a constructive comment to make. )

Edited by kurt91, 23 November 2011 - 08:35 PM.