7962 replies to this topic

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

Beautiful, thanks. No news is good news! And yes, stopping and thinking. My goal is to kill any chance the player would have to "rely" on anything, and force him to rely on everything.

Drat, I was going to edit this into the other one, but Page 70 took root... So I'll just post it here.



The Red Borders of Pending Mortality are back.

Also note, Felix has his own "got hurt" pose, that I programmed in myself. You only see it a split second at a time in the game though. Usually.

And for comparative purposes, here was the old shot of the Death Borders from months ago:


I got many complaints about these ones back then, for being obstructive and distracting. If you'll notice, I took precautions against that when I re-added them by making them smaller and a darker color (the size of the borders in both shots are as far out as they go-- in the game they oscillate inward and outward like a heartbeat). Personally I think the new ones look a LOT better, and I hope people agree and that I did well in fixing what needed fixing.

I for one love the new subscreen. It's not your a-typical ZC subscreen, which really does set the tone for a game that's going to deviate from a lot of the basics that form up a quest (from what I've seen and heard of it, it will anyway). I also dig the slightly-inspired-by-WindWaker-feel to it, though I don't know if that was intentional or not. Good job either way! The new 'low health' effect is also a lot nicer.

[Mero]

I disagree with you Kurt. I shouldn't have to give my dungeon a theme just for it to be non generic.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

I disagree with you Kurt. I shouldn't have to give my dungeon a theme just for it to be non generic.

Urr. What? Of course you do!

That's like saying that Wind Waker wouldn't have been any more unique and original without the ocean overworld. Which is essentially not true. At all.

You don't have to make a Lava Dungeon, or Forest Ruins or anything like that, but a dungeon without a theme is literally the definition of generic dungeons. Give it something special, give me a reason to look at your dungeon and think 'Ah, that's the dungeon from that quest', rather than 'Oh hey you made a dungeon using Zelda Classic, good job' (hint: I will not say good job if you go with the last one )

[Mero]

Urr. What? Of course you do!

That's like saying that Wind Waker wouldn't have been any more unique and original without the ocean overworld. Which is essentially not true. At all.

You don't have to make a Lava Dungeon, or Forest Ruins or anything like that, but a dungeon without a theme is literally the definition of generic dungeons. Give it something special, give me a reason to look at your dungeon and think 'Ah, that's the dungeon from that quest', rather than 'Oh hey you made a dungeon using Zelda Classic, good job' (hint: I will not say good job if you go with the last one )

That's not what I mean at all Robin. I mean that a dungeon should be unique in it's game play elements. Not in it's freaking theme.

[Sheik]

I disagree with you Kurt. I shouldn't have to give my dungeon a theme just for it to be non generic.

That's not what I mean at all Robin. I mean that a dungeon should be unique in it's game play elements. Not in it's freaking theme.

You could also have both. Also, if your dungeon looks super-generic, it will not spark any interest in me (even if you cram it with scripts) and I will not try it and will never learn about all the great gameplay mechanics you've implented. There's a reason people make games look good and interesting.

Edited by Yoshimi, 21 November 2011 - 04:59 PM.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

That's not what I mean at all Robin. I mean that a dungeon should be unique in it's game play elements. Not in it's freaking theme.

Calm down cowboy. But no, without a theme, the dungeon is generic, no matter how good the gameplay is. It really does not matter, without a theme it's just another dungeon.

Remember, just because you have a theme doesn't mean you can't have good gameplay.

[Mero]

You could also have both. Also, if your dungeon looks super-generic, it will not spark any interest in me (even if you cram it with scrips) and I will not try it and will never learn about all the great gameplay mechanics you've implented. There's a reason people make games look good and interesting.

I think you should define generic then.

[Sheik]

I'm using generic as a term to discribe the visual side of the dungeon. I take it for granted that different dungeons have different gameplay. If they don't, I don't see the point of having different dungeons in the first place (yes, Z1 dungeons tend to bore the hell out of me).

Edit: We should actually define pretty much everything. It bewonders me to no ends how people are even capable of communicating considering no one ever really knows whether they talk about the same thing when they use the same terms (obviously, I am exaggerating, but you get my point). I wonder if everybody agrees on the definition of the term "definition". That'd be offtopic, but the thought has come to my mind.

Edited by Yoshimi, 21 November 2011 - 05:11 PM.

[Twilight Knight]

Calm down cowboy. But no, without a theme, the dungeon is generic, no matter how good the gameplay is. It really does not matter, without a theme it's just another dungeon.

Remember, just because you have a theme doesn't mean you can't have good gameplay.

You are saying this so resolute as if you think you are telling facts, but this is simply your opinion.

I agree with Blackbishop. It doesn't need a theme to be non-generic or a memorable dungeon. Maybe the theme of this dungeon is simply: none.

[Sheik]

If the theme was none, than there'd be no dungeon. You can also have "castle" as theme, it doesn't have to be "fire, water, whatever". The latter tend to be more interesting, though. So, saying the dungeon is generic might mean something like "the dungeon's theme is poorly developed and not memorable or interesting".

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

You are saying this so resolute as if you think you are telling facts, but this is simply your opinion.

I agree with Blackbishop. It doesn't need a theme to be non-generic or a memorable dungeon. Maybe the theme of this dungeon is simply: none.

But it is. I'm not saying the 'theme' has to be say, a fire dungeon, but if it doesn't have a theme, that means it's generic. A theme can be many things, but without it, it'll lack something which is very important to a gaming experience.

Imagine if say, Lost Isle didn't have a theme. I'd say that its theme was being kind of creepy. Without that, it'd been just another Zelda Classic quest, but instead the creators managed to create a special feeling that you really only get when playing Lost Isle. And I didn't even enjoy Lost Isle all that much, but they did nail that aspect of it.

To say anything else is beyond me. o.O And no, you can't have a 'none theme'. That's not a thing, it doesn't exist. That's like saying you're gonna make a loaf of bread with 'none taste'. Doesn't make a single bit of sense.

EDIT: and just to make this clear: I wasn't commenting on his screen, I was commenting on what he said about themes.

[Mero]

You say a theme of none cannot exist but a dungeon without a theme is generic. So how can generic dungeons exist then?

Edited by blackbishop89, 21 November 2011 - 05:39 PM.

[Nightmeres]

just one question here, who's quest is this? Blackbishop's or someone else?(not implying that i don't know who the creator of the quest is)

can't he design it the way he wants?

now i do agree that it doesn't have a theme in all. However, since he is the one designing the game in the first place he should be the one who decides how it plays out.

now for suggestion,

if he does decide to add a theme he can incorporated the way he wants.

Idea#1: water shooting out of walls blocking player or pushing them back so they have to find another way around.

Idea#2: Vanishing floor tiles that if stepped on player will get knocked to a lower floor.

Idea#3: obstacles falling from ceiling providing a challenge to the player

there are many ways to provide a "theme" to a dungeon.

he does not in any means have to use these or any theme. It is his dungeon after all!

[Mero]

I've come to the conclusion after this discussion that I need to invest more time in the themes of my dungeons and less into the gameplay correct? Would you all agree that the theme and gameplay of a dungeon is equally important? Anyways started from scratch and gonna go with a Marsh Theme, how does that sound.

[Schwa]

Oh wow, lots of responses!

Since I am assuming that you will not use the built in almost useless minimap but cook up something clever, I'd say a minimap that's visible while playing (while not pausing the game) would be a good thing. But if it's just a blue (green?) dot somewhere in a blank square I personally don't need it.

Truth. And at the rate I'm going, I won't settle for a dot in a blank square, don't worry.

The minimap on the passive subscreen never really seemed to be all that useful on its own. I think it would be just fine restricted to the active subscreen, unless you can think of a reason to make it important to have close at hand. If you were to add a compass-like feature to point you in the general direction of your next goal, then it would be useful enough to put in. Personally, I tend to get a LOT more use out of the spacebar-map. It gives more details on where things are, and it's faster to bring up to look through than the active subscreen.

I don't see what problems you've been having in drawing the subscreen, it looks pretty good. I think if I were to recommend a change, though, it's that the health bar seems to blend in with the red background on that part. Could you change the health bar to a different color, so it stands out a bit more?

By the way, I love the idea of the red "pain border" when Felix gets hurt. Are you going to put in a sound effect to go with it? You could have it get slightly louder the less health Felix has.

Oh, people DO use the Spacebar Map? I've wondered whether or not people use it. I'm not used to doing so. (Ask Russ. I playtested some of his game in RL with him watching, and I kept having to bring up the Giant Map and after a while I was like argharghargh )

The Health Bar? It changes color. Dark green at full health, slowly changing to light green and to yellow and to orange and to dark red. There's about eleven colors total. (These go up to eleven! </spinaltap>)

The Red Border isn't when Felix gets hurt, it's when he's at low health and about to die. It essentially replaces the God-awful BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP sound effect that you get at one heart-- and also, since this effect always happens at a % of your max health, you won't have like 24 Heart Containers and HAVE to be at only one Heart for the sound to go off. It was always annoying when something killed me at 4+ Hearts or whatever and I had no warning... (Oh, and that can technically still happen, but another effect that's not shown is that whenever you take damage, the part of your Life Bar that just got lopped off flickers red as it shrinks down to nothing, so if you get hit by something absurdly powerful, you can glance at your Life Bar to get an idea of where you'll be in terms of health if that thing hits you a second time, or if you'll be dead.)

Schwa, the spin attack is certainly a cool idea. Having it limited by a meter is also wise as well - otherwise power attacks become the only thing that people use.

The subscreen is interesting but maybe a little too random looking? Maybe when it's finished that effect will be diminished somewhat. It's certainly very creative.

Finally the low health effect is pretty cool, actually. It reminds me of some modern FPS games, it helps make you feel like you're about to die. And I agree, it's much better then the original attempt - not only in size but color (hue and intensity). Orange just doesn't fit for this kind of effect.

Right. I want to make the players make use of everything they have at their disposal, and not rely on just a few things! You could try to "rely" on the Spin Attack, but that would make you do a lot of dodging and waiting and running around, so it becomes impractical. And also not everything can be hurt with the sword.

Randomness... or rather chaoticness is what I was shooting for. Don't worry, it'll be diminished when there's more stuff in front of the darker triangles. Also I'll modify it as needed so it doesn't look wonky in places.

The FPS effect was what inspired the Low Health borders. That desperation feeling of "oh god oh god oh god need hearts need hearts no no no aaaaaa"... It does a better job than the BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP which was more like "FOR GOD SAKES I HATE THIS GAME WHERE'S THE GODDAMN HEART", which... isn't a BAD thing, but not what I wanted.

I guess what I liked about the old subscreen was how calm it felt. The new one is like...WHOA MAN! BRIGHT TRIANGLES IN YOUR FACE!

Oh, the irony.

I for one love the new subscreen. It's not your a-typical ZC subscreen, which really does set the tone for a game that's going to deviate from a lot of the basics that form up a quest (from what I've seen and heard of it, it will anyway). I also dig the slightly-inspired-by-WindWaker-feel to it, though I don't know if that was intentional or not. Good job either way! The new 'low health' effect is also a lot nicer.

Wind Waker feel? Unintentional, but thank you I think! I've actually never played Wind Waker. (I KNOW I KNOW I told you in Skype I would borrow it from my RL friend BUT I'M A LIAR OKAY JUST SHOOT ME)

I shouldn't have to give my dungeon a theme just for it to be non generic.

There's no such thing as "no theme", technically. If you have a generic non-themed dungeon, then its theme is "non-themed".

Heck, you could make this work to your advantage! Imagine players talking about your Quest; "Man, do you remember the Palace of Neutrality? That dungeon was a damn nightmare." Make them remember such a dungeon for its gameplay rather than its flavor. Chefs make rice taste good by preparing it different ways, you know. Up for the challenge?