294 replies to this topic

[Mani Kanina]

Level 8 was a big offender though because it actively watered down what made the original good (the entire room changing in the original both felt impactful and also helped keep the screen readable, it felt like you were falling into pits that kept looping back around to themself, and the music choice helped sell that it was the final dungeon for real; meanwhile here it's just a midgame dungeon so the music loses its impact and the gimmick is the same but with the visual flourish taken from it; it feels like wasted space in the quest; an entire chunk where "god I wish I was playing the better sinners citadel instead of this knockoff".

Aye, lamo.

[Deedee]

The dungeons in Dreams Realm are very consistent with the dungeons in the creator's other quests, so there's no surprise that the dungeons in DR are the way that they are - with the exception of L6, which was plagued by bad execution in my opinion. I happen to be a fan of the creator's other quests, for the most part, so that's what enticed me to play this one. Maybe for that reason, I'm more tolerant of some objectively-questionable dungeon-design choices.

I have not played a Sans quest before this point, but I have played Herald of Heroes, which I quite enjoyed. I do think overall Herald had much stronger dungeons; even remembering the quest I can't recall any dungeon that turned me off visually. On the other hand, both Creation Pillar and a lot (not all) of Ice Church don't do it for me, and that lack of visual clarity really hurts those dungeons. There's a balance between clutter and emptiness, and while I think Herald was generally on the more-empty side, that emptiness meant the gameplay never suffered; it's a lesser of two evils for me. The earlygame of this was quite strong; even Level 3 started out pretty good with its main problem being that navigation in the later half was too obtuse; it's a shame that the quest just got weaker.
 

you can also throw in a whole lot of "kill all" enemies rooms really also killing the pacing

This was another criticism I failed to mention, but every single kill all enemies room has the doors not stay open. I believe Moosh's GB shutter script comes with an option to stay open; I wonder why it wasn't used. In any case, it hurts any dungeon that has one of these kill all rooms.
 

Aside from that, I think it's petty to criticize the creators for retreading musical tracks or dungeon-related gimmicks from other quests.Let's face it: nearly every single Zelda Classic quest has memorable midis from other Zelda games, Final Fantasy games, the Castlevania or Megaman series, and, in the meta-sense, often other ZC quests. Very, very few quests out there have what I would call an original soundtrack, and I honestly don't even expect an original soundtrack based on what I've heard from playing Zelda Classic over 18 years or so. Likewise, yes there are gimmicks from other quests also being retreaded in Dreams Realm, but there are also some new, interesting gimmicks that I haven't seen elsewhere.

Right; I don't think reusing ideas is bad; the problem is that oftentimes these feel like like "Oh I have a cool idea for this gimmick that X person used" and more "Oh hey, X quest did this and they were liked, maybe people will like my quest if I use it too!", and it really hurts the quest when that becomes apparent. In hindsight I padded my list out and included a few examples that seemed pedantic; the torch thing isn't exactly a groundbreaking unique idea; but level 8 was the straw that broke the camel's back in a sense. Maybe the music thing is petty, but my logic is that people choose music for their area that they find the most fitting; I brought up those examples of how obscure the music is to make it extremely clear that whoever picked the music was specifically taking them from quests and it's a pattern. This sucks because the best music in this quest are the picks that aren't taken from another quest. Elements Shrine, Dreams Gate, the first 3 dungeons, the light world overworlds (basically the entire light world), and even Creation Spire (which I guess is also technically light world) are inspired picks; I'm just baffled as to why some music is taken from other quests, especially when it isn't a good fit. We could have gotten a cool overworld theme for the dream world, and I thought we were with Turtle Hill, but instead I just spend the entire time in the dream world thinking about glory squad. I really doubt the midna remix was the most fitting music that could be chosen for the desert dungeon. I didn't mind the banana's boss theme being reused for the light world; it's a good song and it fits, but the songs that don't fit or where a more fitting song could have been found are the ones that baffle me the most. I guess the reason I'm objecting here is when a quest uses an obscure music, it's sort of adopting that music into it's identity in a way that more mainstream picks simply don't; so when you pick them, you're just inviting me to think about other quests, when I should be thinking about the quest that I am currently playing, and that's a damn shame. I know that if I ever hear the Elements Shrine music, I'm going to be thinking of Dreams Realm, and if another quest uses it I'm not going to be thinking about that quest, I'm going to be thinking about Dreams Realm. (Technically, another quest did use an 8 bit version of the elements shrine music, but Dreams Realm is what comes to mind when I think of that song now)

EDIT: one positive I forgot to mention; the dungeon opening cutscenes are really solid. Well done, actually impressive.
 

Aye, lamo.

See, it's weird; when you did it it was very clear that it was a homage, it felt like it was a reference. Here it just feels uninspired.

[Mani Kanina]

I haven't played this quest, and if I had more free time to dedicate towards playing quests then it's absolutely one I'd want to take for a spin.

Still, I think the notion of copying ideas is interesting. As a connoisseur of stealing items from other people's quests I find the discussion of the topic interesting. (I apologizing for slightly derailing the thread).

Nothing under the sun is new, humans are generally always inspired by ideas and concepts of others. If something seems new, it's either because you yourself haven't seen it before, or because it's a novel mix of concepts. After playing Hookshot 2 I infamously copied a dungeon idea from there as basis from one of the bonus dungeons in Legend of Lana DX. Similarly, another bonus dungeon in that quest is inspired heavily by Palace of the Four Sword from ALTTP (GBA). Not to mention that quest's final dungeon is an adaptation of a Hyrule Warriors stage, of all things (Though it kinda makes sense in context?)

Really, pilfering ideas isn't really bad, I certainly don't think so. If so, every sad sod on this site that has tried copying the Water Temple from OoT is guilty, and I damn well know there is a whole bunch of ya. Even one of the most liked quests historically dd that (Lost Isle).

No, see, what is more important to me is what is brought to the table. The Water Temple from OoT, for example, isn't just *one* idea, after all. There is the aesthetics, the graphics and music, etc. Then there is the thematics: it's a water dungeon, so there is water. Then there is the gimmick, the part which makes the dungeon infamous: the raising and lowering the water level. And finally, of course, there is the level design itself of the place. Level 1 in Lost Isle only really copies *one* of these ideas: the raising and lowering of water. Other quests in the database often takes more.

More importantly though: if you copy them all, then you're just making a recreation entirely, or an adaptation. That rarely happens, though some people like making fan remakes too. But essentially: the ideas that aren't copied wholesale has to be replaced with new things, and that's what makes it interesting. From Deedee's account it sounds like a lot of dungeons in this quest takes gimmick and all aesthetic ideas from other big hitters in other quests. I don't think that's bad on it's own; though it does sound a bit uninspired at first glance. But hey, if the new level design does something neat with those ideas, then what's the harm?

Still, I can understand the criticism. The more ideas you take from one source then the more obvious it becomes to draw comparison. And if this happens a lot then it might quickly devolve into a collection of "best hits of ZC redone", and maybe that wasn't the goal?

As for the comparison for taking common ideas and tropes as well as specific ideas from Nintendo, I like to leave off on this tidbit: The Water Temple from OoT might be one of the most popular ones to do this with. Yet none of the examples I've seen in ZC Quests get even close to feeling like a rip-off or just treading the same ground as that dungeon. I think a key part in that is that people have their own ideas what made the Water Temple good, or bad, or infamous; so things are naturally changed. Though I will say, all of them are *far far* worse than the OoT Water Temple, at least in my humble opinion.

Edited by Mani Kanina, 02 January 2024 - 07:11 PM.

[Mani Kanina]

So I decided to take this for a spin. My first session was roughly two hours and I'm just going to post my loose thoughts on it so far.

It really does feel like this quest needed another round of playtesting first before release. I kinda feel like I'm play testing the beta build rather than a final quest, since there are so many small things that should have come up in testing. Anyway, I don't want to speak broadly about the quest since I'm not very far in, but here are my notes and complaints so far:

The intro just jumps all over the place with several sets of concepts and mcguffins and reveals. It's a bit overwhelming and hard to follow, tbh. The style of the intro also switches mid intro. The intro fucking repeats on the title screen if you don't press start, and you can't skip it, why was this done?
 

Talking bun 10/10

Tile edits that look like they were taken from project storm 10/10
 

Inconsistent what trees you can walk behind
 

Audio level between music tracks inconsistent: This is especially blatant and bad with the cave music from Minish Cap. Please do an audio balance of your quest, I consider a darn necessity. My ears hurt whenever I enter a cave and I can barely hear some of the other tracks in the quest.

The path to the sword requires a bit of a leap in logic. No NPC even hints towards where you can get it, and yet you need to leave town and go into a dungeon to retrieve it. The obstacle maze within also feels very 2.10 ish and not very interesting.

 

Why is the forest overhang the same on almost every screen? And also a really plain pattern?
 

The continue screen for the quest and the area transition fade out colour should clearly be black, yet it's a bright beige. In transitions this causes a lot of flashing (which hurts my eyes) and on the continue screen it makes it hard to read the *white* text. I'm surprised this never came up in testing and wasn't addressed. I'm normally not photo sensitive, but being sick and having a headache the flashing when entering caves and houses really hurts.
 

General level geometry is very plain in most places. This does not have to be a bad thing, but it feels boring to me.
 

Had to F6 out of a cave "kill all enemies room" because (I assume) a fairy spawned. The doors never opened.
 

Dying in any of th Deepwoods Forest caves sends you back to the first screen of the overworld, creating a lot of extra backtracking.
 

Enemy bomb ammo drops look different from chest and shop bomb ammo.
 

Unmarked pushable block that needs to be pushed in the first push block puzzle in level 1.
 

You don't walk across sideview ladders by default, making you just kinda fall into them. This is not a *big* deal, but it feels awkward.

The level 1 Boss is overtuned. I went in with remote bombs upgrade and 3 hearts and it was a huge difficulty spike from anything before it in the quest. Bombs are the optimal strategy in phase 1, and frankly the remote bomb upgrade almost feels necessary for that phase to not drag out. The only reason I had that was because I backtracked out of level 1 when my wallet was full. (And even then I was debating between the remote bomb upgrade and the unmarked blue bag). Furthermore, a bigger problem is that bombs are kind of required for the boss, yet no concession is made for if players don't have bombs or run out of bombs while making attempts at the boss. I had to leave after a few tries of the boss to farm for bombs, not great. People *can* save and retry if they are expecting in, but this is a trick and not something that should be demanded of the player. Place some way to restock bombs on the way to the boss.
 

The 500 rupee wallet should *probably* be cheaper and more clearly look like a wallet upgrade. You're buying shop items based on graphics alone, since there is no tool tip, so they have to be rather self evident, especially if they are expensive.
 

Pits behind walkable trees that you can't see aren't fun, period.

[Useless Old Man Wisdom]

Tile edits that look like they were taken from project storm 10/10

Keep on playing and you'll see more nods to Project Storm here and there throughout Dreams Realm.

 

I agree with all of the other small notes and complaints, to varying degrees. The L1 and L2 bosses, in particular, are a stark difficulty spike for the early stage of the game, because the bosses and mid-bosses seem to become a lot easier later on. In fact, the more that I play and think about it, I realize that this quest could use a lot more polishing - and some bug fixes for the more serious issues - than I thought.

[TheRock]

Level 8. I don't remember how I came up with the dungeon gimmick. I knew it was similar to the one in LQFTH2(Go check the difference, there're quite a bit different. That one takes you to a different map while mine just changes the barrier). and the reason for the music is because that's the one I liked the most(It was supposed to be a MP3 but was to load). The things that are the same in these dungeons is how you change the version of the dungeon... See my dungeon tutorial for reference: "Barrier plus way you change the barrier: This is a barrier dungeon but then the way you change the barrier is different. Like Floor 5 from To The Top with going in the wheel you change the barrier." https://www.purezc.n...al#entry1070016

 

Will look to nerf level 1 and 2 boss because I think both of those need to be done.

[Noire]

I'll change the 2 first bosses's HP, and stuffs to make things more easier so player won't requires the Bombs, or the Remote Bombs for the first boss. However, the usage of theses will remains recommended to have an easy time with the boss. 

[Mani Kanina]

Kay, played a bit more, roughly six hours in.

I'm going to be upfront and frank here: I would have dropped this quest after Level 3. I would have dropped this quest after Level 3 even if this was a game I payed for.

Here are my thoughts so far:

The entire plot with the Gorons feel a bit rushed.

The Kakaro Grounds palette is a bit too much of an eye strain. The dungeon does feel more appropriately sized for a (second dungeon in the game) though, Level 1 was quite large. The quest page does advertise wast dungeons, so this isn't necessarily a complaint. But it might be a cause for concern considering pacing. Kamaro Grounds lack a warp out after getting the item, players who are used to ZC will just F6, but there is no reason why there isn't a warp tile.

 

I assumed the Goron Elder would want to talk to you after doing his trial thingy, but apparently not; seems a bit weird.

 

One note in regards to the entire mountain area: Unless you're versed in the knowledge of how splitting enemies work in regards to damage, you'll be very punished for it. All the splitting enemies need you to fight using exclusively spin attacks; something that isn't intuitive, maybe add in a hint if you're not going to tweak this?

 

With all the lava obstacles in Gaia Cavern, it might be worth looking over that the drowning damage is 1 full heart. It's quite a lot at this point in the game.

 

A nitpick, but having played Golden Sun, I feel like the Venus Lighthouse music does not fit Gaia Cavern at all. I know, it's a popular song to use in quests, but, eeeeeh. It also felt a bit thematically weird that the ice/fire hybrid dungeon is in the crater of a volcano, but I guess that's not that much weirder than what Oracle of Seasons did, even though it sticks out more.

 

Level 2 boss don't feel *quite* as overtuned as the level 1 boss. but the 1 heart of damage from drowning in lava is the real punishing part; especially since you get comboed into it.

 

The boss intro really only needs to play the first time you try a fight, this goes for every boss.

 

Beating Gaia Cavern and still no update to NPC text in goron city. Elder don't care and the citizen still seem to be starving. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Stuff like this and the silliness with the slingshot pieces in the dungeon and the guy putting it together makes it hard to take the story seriously. It's not even implied to be anything other than just a regular stick and rope. And for the record, you generally use rubber for a slingshot, not rope.

 

Oh hey, the GB style Lana tiles I was working on. I guess someone has been digging through the tiles in VD. She does not really look like a Zora, however. I'd recommend Ether's Zora tiles that are in the database.

 

Sparkster music is an interesting choice in music for a zelda dungeon. Having now finished the dungeon, I will note that an upbeat track like that with a decently short loop will get very tiresome when you spend an hour and half in same zone.

 

Unmarked required pushblock in the dungeon. It's mirrored to an existing one, but since prior pushblocks set up an expectation that these will be marked it's quite hard to figure out. Because you're not primed for it at all then there is no expectation that there even is a puzzle to solve on that screen.

And finally, the meat of problem: The structure of level 3 is... it's just bad. It's a decently large dungeon, but that's not really the concern. There's a lot of dead ends you need to do in a specific order, but it's not at all clear what that order actually is. The structure of the dungeon is also completely nonsensical. There are warp tiles everywhere. A large puzzle dungeon that you piece by piece put together need to internally be consistent for the player to be able to make a decent mental map. Since the warps are completely removed from the logical structure of the place, you have no idea what you need to do. Even if you can parse that, "ah, I need to go to this spot" actually getting there involves taking a warp somewhere... and that could be literally anywhere else in the dungeon.

It just feels like padding and needless backtracking rather than anything of value. Which is a shame, because the dungeon looks good.

Remember: The good aspect about backtracking is the player consciously making the connection that what they need to do to progress is behind them, and accurately proceeds there. The walk there isn't the interesting part, nor is fun if you can't possibly perceive where you need to go.

I would honestly recommend redoing large portions of level 3. Again, to iterate:I would have stopped playing your game after this because I found it that bad and unfun. The only reason I'm not is because I'm curious about a very specific element in this quest that is later on.


 

 

[Noire]

Alright so, concerning the shutters that won't open bug, and the empty treasure chest in Level 4, after a few research, we came into the conclusion that theses are the bugs all related to 2.55. As result, 2.55 is incompatible with the quest due to bugs, and dangerous bugs that you might encounter. As result, to avoid theses bugs, you'll need to play the quest in 2.53. Only that will fix theses insolvable bugs.

[Deedee]

The shutter thing is both fixed in newer 2.55, and is also a script issue. This is because fairies are treated as enemies, and your shutter script doesn't ignore them. The bug was that fairies didn't die when you picked them up or let them disappear, so an invisible enemy would stay onscreen. This is fixed, but the script you are using will still keep the door closed while the fairy is onscreen. Here is a fix to your database script that also adds the ability to keep the doors open after killing all enemies or solving the puzzle.

Shutter Script

// Shutter by eternaljwh, modified by Zaidyer

const int SCREEND_SIMPLESHUTTER = 2;

ffc script simple_shutter
{
	void run(int dir, int openable, int layer, int comboflag, int staysopen)
	{
		//direction = 0-3 for closing to UDLR
		//openable = 2 for if it will open when secrets are triggered
		// = 1 for if it opens when no enemies are around
		// = 0 if it never will
		//layer are where a secret combo will be
		//comboflag is what the flag it will watch for
		// door opens when this flag is nowhere on the layer
		//if staysopen is over 0, the door will always stay open after it is opened.
		int d;
		int db;
		if (staysopen > 0 && Screen->D[SCREEND_SIMPLESHUTTER] > 0) Quit();
		while (LinkCollision(this))
		{
			NoAction();
			Link->X += 2*Sign(InFrontX(dir,0));
			Link->Y += 2*Sign(InFrontY(dir,0));
			Waitframe();
		}
		this->Data--; //changes combo one more closed
		Waitframes(5);
		this->Data--; //again, now fully closed
		//SFX here if desired (move to earlier in closing time also):
		Game->PlaySound(SFX_SHUTTER);

		Waitframe();
		bool closed = true;
		while (closed)
		{
			Waitframe();
			if (LinkCollision(this))
			if (dir & 2) //left/right
			Link->X = this->X + InFrontX(dir,0);
			else //up/down
			Link->Y = this->Y + InFrontY(dir,0);
			if (openable == 1)
			{
				closed = false; //set it to false before we loop through all enemies
				for(int i=Screen->NumNPCs(); i>=1; i--) //credit - Moosh's Simple GB Shutter for figuring out which enemies should not count
				{
					npc n = Screen->LoadNPC(i);
					if(n->Type!=NPCT_PROJECTILE&&n->Type!=NPCT_FAIRY&&n->Type!=NPCT_TRAP&&n->Type!=NPCT_GUY) //If not a projectile, fairy, trap, or guy
					{
						if(!(n->MiscFlags&NPCMF_NOT_BEATABLE)) //and if the enemy counts as a beatable enemy
						{
							closed = true;
							break;
						}
					}
				}
			}
			else if (openable == 2)
				closed = (LastComboFlagOf(comboflag, layer) != -1);
		}
		if (staysopen > 0) Screen->D[SCREEND_SIMPLESHUTTER] = 1;
		//SFX here if desired (move to earlier in opening time also if desired):
		Waitframes(10);
		Game->PlaySound(SFX_SHUTTER);
		this->Data++; //half-open
		Waitframes(10);
		this->Data++; //open

		Quit();
	}
}

As for the other issue; what is the bug? What chest is already open?

[TheRock]

The shutter thing is both fixed in newer 2.55, and is also a script issue. This is because fairies are treated as enemies, and your shutter script doesn't ignore them. The bug was that fairies didn't die when you picked them up or let them disappear, so an invisible enemy would stay onscreen. This is fixed, but the script you are using will still keep the door closed while the fairy is onscreen. Here is a fix to your database script that also adds the ability to keep the doors open after killing all enemies or solving the puzzle.

Shutter Script

// Shutter by eternaljwh, modified by Zaidyer

const int SCREEND_SIMPLESHUTTER = 2;

ffc script simple_shutter
{
	void run(int dir, int openable, int layer, int comboflag, int staysopen)
	{
		//direction = 0-3 for closing to UDLR
		//openable = 2 for if it will open when secrets are triggered
		// = 1 for if it opens when no enemies are around
		// = 0 if it never will
		//layer are where a secret combo will be
		//comboflag is what the flag it will watch for
		// door opens when this flag is nowhere on the layer
		//if staysopen is over 0, the door will always stay open after it is opened.
		int d;
		int db;
		if (staysopen > 0 && Screen->D[SCREEND_SIMPLESHUTTER] > 0) Quit();
		while (LinkCollision(this))
		{
			NoAction();
			Link->X += 2*Sign(InFrontX(dir,0));
			Link->Y += 2*Sign(InFrontY(dir,0));
			Waitframe();
		}
		this->Data--; //changes combo one more closed
		Waitframes(5);
		this->Data--; //again, now fully closed
		//SFX here if desired (move to earlier in closing time also):
		Game->PlaySound(SFX_SHUTTER);

		Waitframe();
		bool closed = true;
		while (closed)
		{
			Waitframe();
			if (LinkCollision(this))
			if (dir & 2) //left/right
			Link->X = this->X + InFrontX(dir,0);
			else //up/down
			Link->Y = this->Y + InFrontY(dir,0);
			if (openable == 1)
			{
				closed = false; //set it to false before we loop through all enemies
				for(int i=Screen->NumNPCs(); i>=1; i--) //credit - Moosh's Simple GB Shutter for figuring out which enemies should not count
				{
					npc n = Screen->LoadNPC(i);
					if(n->Type!=NPCT_PROJECTILE&&n->Type!=NPCT_FAIRY&&n->Type!=NPCT_TRAP&&n->Type!=NPCT_GUY) //If not a projectile, fairy, trap, or guy
					{
						if(!(n->MiscFlags&NPCMF_NOT_BEATABLE)) //and if the enemy counts as a beatable enemy
						{
							closed = true;
							break;
						}
					}
				}
			}
			else if (openable == 2)
				closed = (LastComboFlagOf(comboflag, layer) != -1);
		}
		if (staysopen > 0) Screen->D[SCREEND_SIMPLESHUTTER] = 1;
		//SFX here if desired (move to earlier in opening time also if desired):
		Waitframes(10);
		Game->PlaySound(SFX_SHUTTER);
		this->Data++; //half-open
		Waitframes(10);
		this->Data++; //open

		Quit();
	}
}

As for the other issue; what is the bug? What chest is already open?

Level 4 people haven't been able to get the map sometimes. The chest would be empty.

[Deedee]

Level 4 people haven't been able to get the map sometimes. The chest would be empty.

Appears to be because of the carryover on the screen to the right. Carryovers carry over everything and you have to check the ones that are not supposed to carry over. If you get the rupee from under the armos you can't get the map; if you get the map, you can't get the rupee from under the armos. Just check "don't carryover" for the special item on the screen to the right.

[TheRock]

Appears to be because of the carryover on the screen to the right. Carryovers carry over everything and you have to check the ones that are not supposed to carry over. If you get the rupee from under the armos you can't get the map; if you get the map, you can't get the rupee from under the armos. Just check "don't carryover" for the special item on the screen to the right.

Oh, will fix.

[Useless Old Man Wisdom]

Some more critiques and feedback - spoiled for erring on the side of courtesy:

 

Spoiler

I found a level-2 shield pretty early on - before level 4 I think, but it was promptly eaten by a like like. After that, I was stuck with the level-1 shield until all the way to level-9 (I found the one in Snow-white town). It struck me as odd that the quest throws a massive amount of rupees at the player - both in enemy drops and secrets - but it seems one can't buy a level-2 shield anywhere. I didn't really miss the level-2 shield that much, but it would have been nice to have.

 

Spoiler

The fire-sword can activate every one of those torches-across-a-pit if you do a pegasus-seed boosted jump and swing the sword with the right timing. The only screen I found where you can't do this is in the cave northwest of Karmah town, which opens the way to level 9 - because the gap is too large to make the jump. I'm not sure if this is an exploit that was intended all along, or if all of those across-a-pit torches were meant to be activated by the seed shooter. In any case, I agree that the seed shooter amounts to a MacGuffin of limited utility, as Deedee mentioned.

 

Spoiler

It took me a while to figure out that, if you hold the button down on which the seed shooter is equipped, and turn the directional buttons, you can point and fire it diagonally. In fact, this is necessary for a certain puzzle in level-8, or else you won't be getting far in the level. The quest gives no indication that you can use the item like this and its totally up to the player to figure it out. Why not have a helpful blue owl to telegraph that one can use the seed shooter diagonally?

 

The seed-pouch and seed-shooter items, due to the up and down keys being used to select the seed type, makes it a pain to scroll through your items in the subscreen. This becomes more and more of a problem as one accumulates more and more items. Also, the fact that both items default to being equipped with the mystery seeds after you select a different item, makes for more of a pain. I wish that each seed type was just an individual item instead of consolidated into one. Ideally, as I think Deedee also said, ideally, the quest would have been designed in VD with 4-button selectable items to (among other things) make the seed items easier to use. I guess a far easier approach would be to redesign the subscreen with more space for each seed type being its own item, and have the 4-types be discoverable once the player finds the first corresponding seed tree. I don't see any fix for this item happening, because such a mod is probably a lot of work, but it would sure be nice.

 

On those screens where the Roc's feather is set as disabled, when you go into such a screen with the Roc's feather equipped, your item slot changes over to the potion, because that item is next in line. If you're not paying attention to what's actually in your item slot, or you don't know about this quirk, when you instinctively go to jump with the Roc's feather, you waste a potion. This has happened to me at least 5 times now. I haven't found myself really needing potions in general, so it isn't a pain if this happens to me with the red-potion in my possession, and stumble upon one of these screens and am suddenly left with just a blue potion; but those players who rely on potions are likely hurt by the backtracking needed to stock back up after this happens.

 

To second Mani, the musical track levels are extremely inconsistent throughout the quest and I also urge you all to balance them. I'm finding myself constantly hitting the volume buttons on my keyboard as I play through. Sometimes, even with the SFX volume turned all the way up, and musical volume turned way down, it's still tough to hear the compass chime or sword tap when I'm trying to find bombable walls. I think trouble hearing the compass chime or sword tap might also be complicated by there being a music track that has a lot of high-mid frequency notes, and the music cancelling out the sword tap, so this might not be corrected that much if it means changing a bunch of music tracks.

 

As an aside, I loved level-7. For how complicated and bewildering the place looks on paper and at first glance, I found the level flowed really nicely and that I had little-no problem solving puzzles or navigating on intuitive auto-pilot. Level-7 is just a massive improvement on level-6; its as though the Dream World itself suffers from bipolar disorder and level-6 was the major depression phase.

Edited by Useless Old Man Wisdom, 04 January 2024 - 04:40 PM.

[Deedee]

As an aside, I loved level-7. For how complicated and bewildering the place looks on paper and at first glance, I found the level flowed really nicely and that I had little-no problem solving puzzles or navigating on intuitive auto-pilot. Level-7 is just a massive improvement on level-6; its as though the Dream World itself suffers from bipolar disorder and level-6 was the major depression phase.

I know right? Level 7 just flows fantastically. It and a certain optional dungeon were my favorites.

So I'm currently in the final dungeon; guess I'll give some post level-10 thoughts.

Spoiler

Moonlight ruins is really bad; it's a labyrinth designed to waste your time. It doesn't add much. The minidungeon before level 11 adds to this; I didn't find it that offensive but it makes use of luck and if you get unlucky... sucks to be you. It took me a while to even realize this was progress, because I assumed the whole overworld area was in service to Sacred Realm, but no, it's also the level 11 overworld and I just missed a path.

Level 11 itself was pretty good; my biggest complaint (really, my big complaint with all the dungeons post-7) is that the enemies are annoying to deal with; endgame of this quest feels like the optimal play is to ignore enemies. Goriya 3's in level 10, fire octorocks and wizzrobes in later dungeons, etc.. it just gets tedious. That said, the flow of Level 11 is good; I really like how it's a 1 floor dungeon that's just really massive, and there's no disconnected warps outside of the shortcut; definitely pretty cool.

Sacred Realm is also neat, but that bomb wall was really obtuse; I would have marked it IMO given how important it is for progress. 

Starlight Ruins is my favorite dungeon, probably tied with Level 7. It flows really great, the gimmick (which you've reused from ganon's tower in herald I see) is still as good as always, the visuals are great, AND, and and, the enemies aren't annoying! Going here after the Legendary Sword was very comfy, and even if I didn't have it I imagine I would have had a good time. Not sure why it's locked behind hammer though. The boss is also really anoying; not a fan of how there's barely any telegraph for some of it's attacks; shame though cause I liked the dungeon.

Level 12 is also pretty good; again, main complaint is that enemies are annoying. Fire octorocks exploding on death is annoying, wizzrobes are way too beefy and needed to have their health reduced; I can't remember if there were any darknuts but I figure I'll complain about the blue and splitting darknuts because they have way too much health given you have the white sword for most of the quest.

Boss rush feels a bit unfair at times; especially the first one and the golem (I don't think the invisible enemy attacking you in any of the fights is good). Level 7 boss I didn't get a chance to complain abut, but while most of the fight is good, the Red phase isn't great; the jumping attack wastes your time (which the second red phase has a quicker jump, thank goodness), and the speed at which they jump towards you is a bit much. I'd replace the first jump attack with the one used for the second red phase, and make him less fast (and also maybe not stun you if you're in the air when he lands?)

I stumbled into the almighty dream; please skip the intro animation on repeat fights, it's really annoying when you try to fight it. I barely got past phase 2 before it revealed there was a phase 3 and I gave up; maybe I need better gear.

I mentioned that the latter half of your inventory just feels very useless; while I might want to think on it some more, som pre-emptive suggestions:

Wand needs a buff. I think if it did 50% more damage and could damage darknuts, it'd be a lot better. Hammer should probably do Master Sword levels of damage (or at least more than magic sword). Seed Shooter should do a lot more damage, like magic sword or more, and they should be able to hurt both Wizzrobes and Darknuts. Hookshot should also deal damage to everything; white sword is probably fine.

Boomerang is complicated; I think it's niche is bat killers, but bats move too fast for it; I'd be willing to script a homing boomerang if you were to use it, but if not then I'm not sure, but I suppose it's not the end of the world if the boomerang is the odd one out. Maybe make it one hit kill bats so it pierces? Unsure.