1333 replies to this topic

[Russ]

Yes, they do write the manuals,

This. The LttP MANUAL is what said that the Master Sword was forged during the Imprisoning War. For all we know, that was just added by NoA, and the Japanese manual (the official one, pretty much) makes no mention of it, thus putting SS perfectly into the canon.

[judasrising]

And what about Ganon is he back or?

He never died in TP!

[Nicholas Steel]

And what, pray tell, is "Hero Mode"? I think you have been hoodwinked by a set of rumors that has been proven false.

I believe there was an interview with myamoto or someone who mentioned it. I don't follow rumours.

[The Satellite]

This. The LttP MANUAL is what said that the Master Sword was forged during the Imprisoning War. For all we know, that was just added by NoA, and the Japanese manual (the official one, pretty much) makes no mention of it, thus putting SS perfectly into the canon.

As far as I know, the only thing localized by NoA was the title (Triforce of the Gods) and changing Agahnim's status from "priest" to "wizard."

He never died in TP!

Yes he did. His eyes whited over and he ceased to move. But friend, this game, if the rumors are true (and I'm certain they are), takes place a long time before TP. Before OoT, even. So if there's another Ganon, it won't be the same one.

EDIT: Courtesy of Migokalle: http://www.zeldalege...nual_story.html

Looks like it was either a mistranslation or taking liberties, but the tense used in reference to the Master Sword implies that it wasn't made in response to Ganon after all, but a precaution from a long time ago. That saves OoT from being a continuity-breaker. But it still implies the Triforce would have to at least play some small part if this game is, indeed, involving the forging of the Master Sword.

[Jupiter]

I believe there was an interview with myamoto or someone who mentioned it. I don't follow rumours.

I was being facetious.

The idea is from a set of rumors that Zelda Informer actually just made up. The completely concocted them and spread them all over the internet, some people still believe them apparently.

[Siguy]

I'm holding my position that if the game contains Ganon/dorf, it can't possibly take place before OoT.

[Nicholas Steel]

I was being facetious.

The idea is from a set of rumors that Zelda Informer actually just made up. The completely concocted them and spread them all over the internet, some people still believe them apparently.

I was aware of those rumors. I was thinking that the harder mode was said by myamoto or someone though in an interview, not his supposed german translator for a USA conference.

[Eurysilas]

EDIT: Courtesy of Migokalle: http://www.zeldalege...nual_story.html

Well, that explains it! I wonder how many other entries into the series NOA has royally screwed with. Making passive changes is one thing....But that document (which I had already stumbled upon before this, but forgotten about) makes it clear that some incompetent jerk just BUTCHERED the storyline.

[Bourkification]

EDIT: Courtesy of Migokalle: http://www.zeldalege...nual_story.html

Looks like it was either a mistranslation or taking liberties, but the tense used in reference to the Master Sword implies that it wasn't made in response to Ganon after all, but a precaution from a long time ago. That saves OoT from being a continuity-breaker. But it still implies the Triforce would have to at least play some small part if this game is, indeed, involving the forging of the Master Sword.

Wow reading through those translations and comment makes a lot of the Zelda story line make sense and piece's it together. I actually think the Nintendo have a great big story of everything in the Zelda universe, and when they make a new game, they just take a section of the story and make a game out of it. The original Japanese manual alludes to things like a race present on Death Mountains (meaning the Gorons), The Seal War (this is the correct translation of The Imprisoning War, therefore referring to the events of OoT), Ganondorf is the leader of a 'race of thieves' meaning the Gerudo, and the story about the origins of Hyrule is almost exactly the same as the one in OoT. The most interesting thing, that relates to SS are these two translations of the same passage from the original Japanese manual:

Accordingly, to repel an evil "kidnapping" of the Triforce, Hyrule's people were informed by a divine oracle to make an "expel-evil" sword.

For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce; the blade of evil's bane.

So perhaps the divine oracle is the blue figure? She is apparently the humanoid representation of the Skyward Sword, so maybe she tells the people that the Master Sword must be created, and her good spirit is forged into the Master Sword, deciding whether or not a person is capable of wielding the sword. It isn't only the hero that can wield the sword, it is anyone who the sword see's fit:

I think NOA may have misrepresented what is necessary to wield the Master Sword. A strong body does not strictly seem to be necessary. The Japanese version just says that only a true hero can use it. It's not clear what the conditions are, but perhaps we can take a page from the AoL manual: someone who has "a strong character with no evil thoughts. ...an inborn special quality is also necessary;" someone "who has been brought up correctly, has gained many kinds of experiences and reached a certain age."

Also, the language here implies that we're not necessarily looking for THE hero. Anybody who is a true hero can use the Master Sword. That's why Zelda can pick it up in TWW - she's not THE hero who has been chosen to defeat Ganon, but nevertheless, she is A true hero.

Edited by Jimmyb, 23 June 2010 - 02:02 AM.

[Radien]

EDIT: Courtesy of Migokalle: http://www.zeldalege...nual_story.html

I've always said that LTTP has more continuity problems than any other Zelda game. Now that I've read that index, I think I now know why... mostly, anyway. For the most part, the perceived inconsistencies come from mistranslations and "liberties taken" by the English translation team, which ended up conflicting with the Japanese storyline, whereas the Japanese storyline was more internally consistent.

Perhaps SS will be the game that clears up a lot of those conflicts... by forcing NoA to go back on its original translations, even if they aren't totally open about it. By "going back" on them, I mean producing a game which clearly follows the Japanese storyline.

Originally, I was going to say that Nintendo (of Japan) seems to only treat the last two Zelda titles as worth considering when making a new installment to the series. This is sometimes true, but not to the extent that I thought, since so much more of those inconsistencies come from English localization. It's quite clear that for LTTP, the English translators were either sloppy or didn't see anything wrong with making stuff up if they thought it sounded good. Sometimes it did, other times it didn't, but either way, it often conflicted later games.

I prefer the idea that the Master Sword predates Ganon. I also like the idea that it only repels evil, not the power of the Triforce, since the latter seems more contrived.. If the Triforce is blessed, why would a holy sword repel it?...

[Mitchfork]

I read through the ALttP Japanese vs. American version thing... while there are some changes which I am boggled by (especially around the Master Sword) I was sort of annoyed by the authors' attitude towards even the minor changes that the American manual made.

1. The American translation team was also in charge of localization; they were given liberty in their translation to make the game more accessible to Western gamers, hence why many "god" references are removed and I guess why Ganon(dorf) is given a last name? Anyway, the point is that the translators were simply doing what was a part of their job and not just messing with the storyline for the heck of it.
2. Neither the Japanese nor the American teams knew about the storylines of future Zelda games (and frankly Z1 and Z2 barely had one at all), or even that there would be a cohesive storyline at all. Any inconsistencies that they created are purely accidental.
3. The changes they make are mostly extremely minor. For example, in the Japanese version, the manual reads "The Triforce cannot itself judge good and evil. That is because only gods judge good and evil." while the American version reads "The Triforce, being an inanimate object, cannot judge between good and evil. Therefore, it could not know that Ganon's wishes were evil; it merely granted them." The translators on the website make a huge distinction between the two, but honestly the American translation (in this one particular case) fits better with the established canon, in which we've never seen a talking Triforce outside of LttP. In any event, this change and most others does not seriously effect the Zelda timeline. It's interesting to see the video game translation practices of the time, but like a lot of LttP the (Japanese) source material even has problems with the Zelda canon.

[The Satellite]

So perhaps the divine oracle is the blue figure? She is apparently the humanoid representation of the Skyward Sword, so maybe she tells the people that the Master Sword must be created, and her good spirit is forged into the Master Sword, deciding whether or not a person is capable of wielding the sword. It isn't only the hero that can wield the sword, it is anyone who the sword see's fit:

That's a very interesting theory, and one I wouldn't be surprised to see happen. Well done.

I also like the idea that it only repels evil, not the power of the Triforce, since the latter seems more contrived.. If the Triforce is blessed, why would a holy sword repel it?...

Well... I wonder if they adopted the American clause about the Master Sword being able to repel the Triforce itself, since I still theorize that the reason the Triforce of Power faded from Ganondorf's hand in TP when he was stabbed by the Master Sword, but not when he was stabbed by the Sages' execution sword, was because the Triforce had no power over the Master Sword. But now, this gives rise to a new theory: If the developers of TP didn't adopt the American way, perhaps now the Triforce of Power itself became inherently evil... ?

The changes they make are mostly extremely minor. For example, in the Japanese version, the manual reads "The Triforce cannot itself judge good and evil. That is because only gods judge good and evil." while the American version reads "The Triforce, being an inanimate object, cannot judge between good and evil. Therefore, it could not know that Ganon's wishes were evil; it merely granted them." The translators on the website make a huge distinction between the two, but honestly the American translation (in this one particular case) fits better with the established canon, in which we've never seen a talking Triforce outside of LttP. In any event, this change and most others does not seriously effect the Zelda timeline. It's interesting to see the video game translation practices of the time, but like a lot of LttP the (Japanese) source material even has problems with the Zelda canon.

At the time, though, being an "inanimate object" wouldn't make such sense, since the Triforce spoke in ALttP. But yeah, guess you're right: We've never heard the Triforce speak again.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

That's a very interesting theory, and one I wouldn't be surprised to see happen. Well done. Well... I wonder if they adopted the American clause about the Master Sword being able to repel the Triforce itself, since I still theorize that the reason the Triforce of Power faded from Ganondorf's hand in TP when he was stabbed by the Master Sword, but not when he was stabbed by the Sages' execution sword, was because the Triforce had no power over the Master Sword. But now, this gives rise to a new theory: If the developers of TP didn't adopt the American way, perhaps now the Triforce of Power itself became inherently evil... ?At the time, though, being an "inanimate object" wouldn't make such sense, since the Triforce spoke in ALttP. But yeah, guess you're right: We've never heard the Triforce speak again.

You're wrong... or, I think you are anyway... didn't it speak at the beginning of OoA/S? And either way, how many times besides AlttP have the Triforce really showed up? I mean, it's mostly been "there", and talked about and stuff, but I don't think we have seen the actual thing too often.

[Russ]

At the time, though, being an "inanimate object" wouldn't make such sense, since the Triforce spoke in ALttP. But yeah, guess you're right: We've never heard the Triforce speak again.

So what, it hasn't SPOKEN. But there's more examples than just talking. Well, wait, it does talk. On the Oracle games, it tells Link to go do whatever in the intro, then it disguises itself as three seagulls and watches over him at the ending when he sails back home. And in TP, it is said that the Triforce CHOSE Ganondorf, indicating that it at least thinks and has free will.

[The Satellite]

At the time, though, being an "inanimate object" wouldn't make such sense, since the Triforce spoke in ALttP. But yeah, guess you're right: We've never heard the Triforce speak again.

Please read. Please. I never once claimed that the Triforce was inanimate. And I don't recall about the Oracle games. So... yeah. I coulda sworn the Triforce didn't speak in Seasons' opening, but that's the only one I've played so far.

If you want to know what I think about the Triforce? The truth is, I'm not sure. It speaks in ALttP, yet in every other game, it just shows up or is in pieces. WW, for example. It shows up, gets wished on, then floats away. So forming an opinion on whether it's "alive" or not is tough. And as far as TP goes, I merely believed that to be an instance of the Triforce pieces transcending time.